Does the article 110.26(F)(1) pertain to foreign systems inside a wall cavity. I have a house with a recessed panel that opens out to a kitchen. It shares a wall with a bathroom. The original installers put the shower head and other assorted plumbing in this same bay as the panel. Is this legal. I thought at first it was, but I'm having seconded thoughts.....would really like to make sure thanks.
dedicated electrical space
- Thread starter nathan1
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: dedicated electrical space
Not permitted.
Not permitted.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: dedicated electrical space
Ryan, can you cite a reference?
The nature of 110.26 as laid out in it's opening statement is for adequate space to work on equipment, not space to get other concealed systems out of the same bay.
I think it's compliant.
I would never have conceived of such an installation!
Ryan, can you cite a reference?
The nature of 110.26 as laid out in it's opening statement is for adequate space to work on equipment, not space to get other concealed systems out of the same bay.
I think it's compliant.
I would never have conceived of such an installation!
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: dedicated electrical space
110.26(F)(1), covers the space the "footprint" of the equipment occupies. the "bay" of the wall is the "occupied" space, therefore if the pipes are in the dedicated space, they are not permitted.
Ryan has a much better way of saying this
110.26(F)(1), covers the space the "footprint" of the equipment occupies. the "bay" of the wall is the "occupied" space, therefore if the pipes are in the dedicated space, they are not permitted.
Ryan has a much better way of saying this
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
Re: dedicated electrical space
it seems to me that is there is no pipe above and 30 iches of space why would it not be code compliant. Ypou and I mite note ever put the pipe this close but its there and what does it hurt? iT certainly does not interefere with the intent is the space requirement which is to allow for worrking space.
it seems to me that is there is no pipe above and 30 iches of space why would it not be code compliant. Ypou and I mite note ever put the pipe this close but its there and what does it hurt? iT certainly does not interefere with the intent is the space requirement which is to allow for worrking space.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
Re: dedicated electrical space
it seems to me that is there is no pipe above and 30 iches of space why would it not be code compliant. You and I mite note ever put the pipe this close but its there and what does it hurt? iT certainly does not interfere with the intent is the space requirement which is to allow for working space.
it seems to me that is there is no pipe above and 30 iches of space why would it not be code compliant. You and I mite note ever put the pipe this close but its there and what does it hurt? iT certainly does not interfere with the intent is the space requirement which is to allow for working space.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: dedicated electrical space
Not only working space, but also the pathway for present and future circuit runs.
Not only working space, but also the pathway for present and future circuit runs.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: dedicated electrical space
Ryan, Pierre,
This section needs some work as it actually prohibits the installation of recessed panles.
Don
Ryan, Pierre,
This section needs some work as it actually prohibits the installation of recessed panles.
While the section goes on to prohibit some specific items the rule is general in nature. It applies to things other than those specified, as shown by the exception for suspended ceilings. The top plate of the wall is not the structural ceiling and it is in the required dedicated space making it impossible to install a recessed panel.
Don
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: dedicated electrical space
George, Stew: 110.26(F) is the section I am refering to.
I was thinking about that last night actually, although I was thinking about the bottom plate of the wall (same difference).
George, Stew: 110.26(F) is the section I am refering to.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: dedicated electrical space
It is near time to celebrate the birth of the one who saves us from the devil, so I am taking a chance playing the "devil's advocate." But here I go.
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I conclude that this is code compliant.
Can I resign from my advocacy job and return to being a "believer" now?
It is near time to celebrate the birth of the one who saves us from the devil, so I am taking a chance playing the "devil's advocate." But here I go.
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">110.26(A)(1) tells me that for an enclosed panel (like the one under discussion), the working space begins at the front of the panel, not the back.</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">110.26(A)(1)(a) tells me that I don't need working space on the sides of this panel.</font>
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">110.26(F)(1)(a) tells me that the space directly above and below the panel (but not necessarily to the side of the panel), from floor to ceiling (including within the wall, since the panel is recessed), cannot have pipes.</font>
I conclude that this is code compliant.
Can I resign from my advocacy job and return to being a "believer" now?
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: dedicated electrical space
I believe the required working space and the dedicated space above panels are refering to two different items. One allows a safe working space, and the other prevents foreign pipes or other foreign systems from intruding above the space occupied by panels or switchgear. IMHO, Don, and Ryan are correct about the top plate issue with recess panels. Either a code change proposal to fix this wording is needed, or we make a willful and wonton violation every time we install a flush panel in a standard residential wall space. Merry Christmas everyone.
I believe the required working space and the dedicated space above panels are refering to two different items. One allows a safe working space, and the other prevents foreign pipes or other foreign systems from intruding above the space occupied by panels or switchgear. IMHO, Don, and Ryan are correct about the top plate issue with recess panels. Either a code change proposal to fix this wording is needed, or we make a willful and wonton violation every time we install a flush panel in a standard residential wall space. Merry Christmas everyone.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: dedicated electrical space
We gotta get away with something every once in a while.
I vote for the latter.
We gotta get away with something every once in a while.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Re: dedicated electrical space
If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that the pipe is not running above the panel but next to it? If this is what you meant than I would agree with Charlie's assessment, however typical stud spaces are 14 1/2" wide and so are the panels. Sounds like the pipe won't fit next to it within the same stud space.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: dedicated electrical space
I vote that way also, since I also do not staple my romex within 8 inches of the dishwasher hookups I do. But don't tell anybody.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: dedicated electrical space
Just when you think you got certain parts of the code down....
We all know that for more time than we can think, that panels have been installed in the recess of walls. Now, we finally see that the wording, if taken how it is written tells us this is not permitted. We also know this probably was not the intent, but intent is not what is necessarily written.
For now, we are mostly violating this section, so I do see a small code change for clarification.
To tell electricians they cannot do this would be the same as asking for a beating!!!
Just when you think you got certain parts of the code down....
We all know that for more time than we can think, that panels have been installed in the recess of walls. Now, we finally see that the wording, if taken how it is written tells us this is not permitted. We also know this probably was not the intent, but intent is not what is necessarily written.
For now, we are mostly violating this section, so I do see a small code change for clarification.
To tell electricians they cannot do this would be the same as asking for a beating!!!
Re: dedicated electrical space
Actually 90.1 (A) through (D)
90.7, Examination of Equipment for Safety,
90.8 (A) & (B),
110.2 Approval
110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment., especially 110.3(A)(1), (2), (7) and (8); and 110.3(B).
110.11 Deteriorating Agents. Unless identified for use in the operating environment, no conductors or equipment shall be located in damp or wet locations..."
110.12,
110.26 (F)(1)
300.4(D)&(E)
300.6 and specifically (D), i.e. shower wall on opposite side of enclosure is "frequently washed".
300.7 regards to RH/Condensation within the wall cavity (A),
and
300.8 Installation of Conductors with Other Systems. Raceways or cable trays containing electrical conductors shall not contain any pipe, tube, or equal for steam, water, air, gas, drainage or any service other than electrical.
Your location is at minimum a damp one, likely potentially a wet one, adjust your thinking accordingly. (through's of the plumbing on the other side of the shower wall/tile no longer continuous regards the concrete/tile, etc. exception).
Actually 90.1 (A) through (D)
90.7, Examination of Equipment for Safety,
90.8 (A) & (B),
110.2 Approval
110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment., especially 110.3(A)(1), (2), (7) and (8); and 110.3(B).
110.11 Deteriorating Agents. Unless identified for use in the operating environment, no conductors or equipment shall be located in damp or wet locations..."
110.12,
110.26 (F)(1)
300.4(D)&(E)
300.6 and specifically (D), i.e. shower wall on opposite side of enclosure is "frequently washed".
300.7 regards to RH/Condensation within the wall cavity (A),
and
300.8 Installation of Conductors with Other Systems. Raceways or cable trays containing electrical conductors shall not contain any pipe, tube, or equal for steam, water, air, gas, drainage or any service other than electrical.
Your location is at minimum a damp one, likely potentially a wet one, adjust your thinking accordingly. (through's of the plumbing on the other side of the shower wall/tile no longer continuous regards the concrete/tile, etc. exception).
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: dedicated electrical space
Just how do you figure it is a damp location?
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