Dedicated Equipment Space

[eprice]

I am reviewing a set of plans (2002 NEC) that include a scenario that I have not encountered befor. I want to make the right call on this, so I am asking for some opinions.

Here's the situation. This is a food preparation area for a restaurant. This is not a traditional restaurant, but more of a hangout for kids that will serve pizza, hot dogs, cotton candy, cookies, etc. The area will be provided with several counters for counter-top appliances such as coffee machines, counter-top ovens, a hot dog grill, soft drink dispenser etc.

The plans show three electrical panels installed in the front or side surfaces of the counters, to provide power for all of the counter-top appliances. One panel, for example is to be installed in the front face of the counter on which a counter-top flash bake oven will sit. From the plan it appears that the front portion of the oven will be over the panel. I assume that there will be counter-top between the panel and the oven. Does the presense of the oven above the panel violate 110.26(F)(1)? What if the oven were moved back a few inches so that it does not occupy the counterspace directly above the panel? Can counter-top workspace be placed in the dedicated equipment space for a panel?

Thanks for any opinions.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

Do I understand correctly that the plans call for a panel to be under a countertop? If so, it seems to me that this would violate 110.26(E). Also, calling upon an electrician to get on hands and knees to work on a panel located below a countertop would violate my notion of permitting ?safe operation and maintenance? (from the first sentence of 110.26).

 

[eprice]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

charlie,

Thanks for the reply. Yes the plans call for the panels to be installed under a counter. I believe they will be flush with the front of the counter base, so the 110.26(A) work space in front of the panel will be maintained, but there may be a few inches of countertop protruding into it. The required 110.26(E) headroom will be provided in the workspace, but yes, because of the mounting height of the panels, the electrician will probably have to kneel or sit on the floor to work on them.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

I think that you might not have a code-based reason for disallowing this, if the first sentence of 110.26 isn?t enough. But I think it is a bad idea, if only from the engineering design perspective. I would like to encourage you to encourage the owner to seek another way to power this facility (if your position gives you this option). Here are my two reasons for this statement:

First, I agree with you, that 110.26(E) would be satisfied, if the panel is flush with the front of the countertop. But if you are standing at a counter, and preparing food on the counter top or eating off a plate on the countertop, then your feet and knees should be able to extent into the space below the countertop. Otherwise, you will be leaning over far too much for the health of your back. Also, since the front surface of a panel is not flat, you risk tearing someone?s pants (or even their legs). So from the view of ergonomics, I'd call it a bad design.

Secondly, if an electrician accidentally touches a live surface, and if the resultant current exceeds the ?let-go? value but not the breaker trip value, then one factor that could save his life is the possibility that his fall to the ground will pull his hands away from the panel. I have talked to an electrician how told me that he was alive because of that fall. A person working on his hands and knees could not extricate himself from this situation, and would be killed. I know the code does not prohibit panels from being mounted at floor-level, and that the larger panels have to be floor-mounted. But I prefer to avoid risk, if no risk is required. So from a safety perspective, I'd call it a bad design.

 

[eprice]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

charlie,

Once again, thanks for your responses. I do not feel comfortable with the scenario and I agree with your reasons that it is a bad idea, particularly the second one. Makeing the suggestion to them that they look for another way is worth a try and I will do so, but this is a remodel in a large, well known, national retail chain. I am assuming that this plan has been used in other places. I'm afraid I will get strong resistance if I make it a "suggestion". I have been hoping for some code back up to make it more than a "suggestion".

 

[jerryb]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

May I add one additional thought: As a design engineer I have seen panelboards built into the side of stainless steel casework before. My understanding is that those installation must carry a UL listing as being a safe installation. Just any old kitchen supplier can not build, install and wire electrical panels.

I don't know the mounting height, but I do know for sure that most newer Taco Bell restaurants have a center island cook surface which comes with a prewired panel.

My suggestion would be to inquire if the equipment is listed by UL or a nationally recognized testing agency. If none exist then I would be concerning about safety and quality of installation. Hope this helps.

 

[friebel]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

To: eprice: When I worked in design for a large chemical company, and I had a difficult situation, like you have, I would call the AHJ, Authority Having Jurisdiction, and get him in the boat with me, so to speak.
This does two things, it shows the AHJ that you are concerned, and want to do the job properly the first time.Also you are developing a good relationship with your local inspector.It always worked for me.

 

[pierre]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

110.27(B) Prevent Physical Damage.

Depending on the exact location and installation procedure, you may be able to reference this section. You would have to make the call.

I as well do not like the design, but the NEC is not for personel likes or dislikes.
If people can sit or stand in front of the panels in close proximity, than 110.27(B) might be the ticket.

What does the building department official say about this?

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

My worry would be the cleaning of the counter every nite. Unless this is a r3 panel any over spill could run down and enter the panel. and most cleaning agents are very conductive. I this this alone would be a great cause for concern.

 

[gwz2]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

hurk27 has a good point.

Are these panelboard(s) rain-tite, as in the 'hosing down' the counters and corrosion resistant to the cooking greases and cleaners?

Can't say I would like my legs against such panelboard while working at a counter subject to 'drink' spillage.

But a NEC Section must dis-allow, if it can be found, - keep looking for a good one..

gwz2

 

[eprice]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

I much appreciate everyone's responses. There are a lot of helpfull suggestions. I'll have to digest the thoughts presented and ask some of the questions that have been suggested. At this point, I don't think I have an NEC reference that I can use to dis-allow them outright. Maybe Pierre's suggestion of 110.27(B) along with the thoughts about cleaning agents and hosing down come the closest. Jerryb, I think this is something similar to what you mentioned in the Tacco Bells. Do you happen to have a reference for the UL listing requirement? If anything else comes to anyones mind, I'll appreciate hearing that as well

BTW, since some of you have mentioned the AHJ, I represent the AHJ. I want to make sure I make the right call on this one

[ December 11, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: eprice ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

Your gonna have to pass this.It's wrong from any electricians oppinion and i too see grease dripping down it.It's sad when something like this slips thru the gray pages of NEC.Im sure they don't care how hard your job will be to work on this.A code change is needed here real fast.A job like this on a bad day would make me want to say I QUIT

 

[roger]

Re: Dedicated Equipment Space

Although maybe a poor reason, I would give 110.3(A)(8) consideration.

Like Jerryb, I have seen prefab UL listed serving line cabinets with panelboards inside them, but these were manufactured assemblies.

Roger