Define bathroom

[iowadean]

A local home has a master bedroom that includes a counter with two basins and a receptacle outlet within 3 feet of each basin. A door from this bedroom leads to another room containing a toilet and a tub/shower. By NEC 2002 definition, neither one of these areas is a bathroom. Article 100, Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

Would you require the basin outlets to be both AFCI and GFCI protected?
Would you allow the basin outlets to be on the same circuit as the other outlets in the bedroom?

Yes or no, please site the appropriate NEC 2002 code section. Thank you.

 

[earlydean]

Re: Define bathroom

The key word is AREA. The sink is in the same area of the commode and tub. Therefore, the area is a bathroom. How close is AREA defined, it is not. It is a judgement call.
Remember the term "water closet"? Used to be, the toilet was placed in it's own little closet, because it stunk. It replaced the "honey pot" slipped under the bed, which was to prevent accidents in wandering out to the privy in the dark. Only recently, with exhaust fans, and flush toilets has this become a problem. One doesn't need a receptacle outlet by a toilet or tub, but one does need a receptacle outlet by a sink used for morning ablutions. Then again, one might not need a receptacle outlet by a sink installed elsewhere in the house, so the bathroom was defined. Not every bathroom has a tub or shower, not every bathroom has a toilet (maybe some homes still have outdoor facilities, with indoor showers).

 

[tonyi]

Re: Define bathroom

First, check for any local amendments. Palm beach county in FL would require GFCI on the basin recepticals even though this doesn't meet the definition of bathroom, and since they're in a BR, AFCI would be required per 2002 NEC.

The CYA thing to do is GFCI protect'em and put'em on a different branch than the rest of the BR. If someone plugs in a hair dryer (or two) and overload trips a breaker constantly they won't be happy campers.

No code refs, the whole show could be run on a single 15A AFCI branch and be "legal" unless it were so huge as to run into some VA load calc limit requiring more. Usable and legal are not necessarily the same thing

 

[tonyi]

Re: Define bathroom

A door is a good clue as to what defines an area IMO. Bedroom closets would be considered bedrooms (and require AFCI) if proximity were all that mattered.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Define bathroom

For the folks that add the commentary in the NFPA 2002 NEC Handbook the key word in the Art. 100 definition of Bathroom is "area". Area as opposed to room. 210.52(D) commentary leads to 210.8(A)(1) which has additional commentary and a great exhibit, 210.9, that shows the very "area" that you describe in your post.

From the commentary after 210.52(D)

A bathroom is defined in Article 100 as an area that includes a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower. The term applies to the entire area, whether a separating door, as illustrated in Exhibit 210.9, is present or not.

 

[pierre]

Re: Define bathroom

This can be a really interesting topic. Does a bathroom require an AFCI?
Is this situation a bathroom? and if it is defined as a bathroom by the AHJ does it not require a 12 wire 20 amp circuit?

By the description given, I would say it is a bathroom. I would wire a 12 wire circuit, and I would GFCI the required receptacle(s).
The real question is, does it require AFCI protection? I for one would not want to make the 'official' response, but if I was forced to ... I would install an AFCI breaker in front of the receptacle.
Today there are unusual circumstances in the building we are involved with - a bathroom we are working on now is 33 ft by 20 ft, and you cannot imagine what is in that room

Pierre

 

[iowadean]

Re: Define bathroom

Given that the basin outlets will be both AFCI and GFCI protected, would you allow them to be on the same circuit as the other receptacle outlets in the bedroom or must they be on a separate 'bathroom' circuit?

Oh yeah, entire house is wired in 12 AWG.

[ November 14, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: iowadean ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: Define bathroom

A lot of larger places are going to this "master suite" notion where a BR winds up being a lot more than an ordinary bedroom.

I'm also uncomfortable with this non-specific notion of "area" - way too squishy. Do it like the section on paint booths and there'd be no question. something like - if a sink is within an X' arc of the crapper with one or less intervening doorways, then its a bathroom. If there were more than one intervening doorway, calling it the same area would be a real stretch IMO.

At some point the code will need to address this master suite and combined baths issue and clear up these squishy areas.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: Define bathroom

Squishy

I like that. You know, when you get right down to it, any space in any occupancy is squishy if the owner wants to pay for non-conventionality.

IMO, an Article 100 definition of Bedroom as to whether it is an area or, rather, is bounded by set distance, or the structure's walls, would be helpful.

Seems to me that the Bathroom "area" is not excluded from overlapping the boundry of other rooms. With the overlap comes the mixing of requirements in the area of the overlap.