Definition of Electrical Work

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njtrombley

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Who defines electrical work and/or what is the definition of electrical work. The reason for the question is this. We have an excavator who we are working with on a job where we are putting in campsites (Pedestals, transformers, panels, etc) and he wants to know if he can do the majority of the work. So the question is, can he dig in the trench? Can he put PVC pipe together? Can he spool off wire? Do you see where it can be a little fuzzy?

When does it become electrical work and when is it just trenching? My thoughts are, what if the trench isn't deep enough? Who's going to be at fault? If he is putting the PVC together and his connections aren't tight and we can't pull our wire in, it will be our problem. If he spools off the wire and kicks it up and/or damages it, it could cause a fire and again, we'll be to blame. I think that any part of an electrical installation should be done by a licensed electrician, but is this how inspectors and the law perceives it if it would have to come down to that?
 
I would say that what he can do would be dictated by his liability insurance policy. My electrical liability package prohibits me from doing any kind of alarm work. (other than smoke detectors) Of course, I could pay a lot more money and be allowed to do alarms, but that is not the direction I want to go in for now. Advise him to consult with his insurer and I'm sure he will have a change of opinion about what he can and cannot do! Also be sure to put on paper (invoices, proposals, change orders etc.) EXACTLY what work you performed and what work was performed "by others." CYA my friend, CYA!:grin:
 
If every areas requirements were similar that would help but they are not. I have worked with excavators who would put in the pipe, it would actually already be in the ground when I went to do a take off( actually nice when figuring the length of service conductors and such can be much more accruate). The were familiar with the size and installation of it, and I never got flagged on the job at inspection. Its kinda like the block layers, you cut short sections of pipe for them to put together as they are building the walls and they are not electricians. I would say that it just depends on where your at, the AHJ, and the relationship you have with that contractor. If it is allowed and your busy it can save you from being on a job or a guy or two on the job mostly standing around. I have also been on sites where they will not do it. I think its more of a workmanship issue than a safety issue, as a second year apprentice I usually ended up on those sites with out a journeyman just a set of prints and piles of PVC and I would not have considered myself an electrician, just in training.

Oh and if he pulled the wire in at that point I would draw the line for putting my signature on the job, wires do need to be pulled with out damaging them and that in my opinion is one of the skills of the electrical trade.
 
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Consider what you are being contracted to do and how you are getting paid.

If you are being paid a flat amount then he is saving you time - but you still have to guarantee he did it right - so inspect. And only let him do what he is qualified to do. He can dig the trench and you can measure the depth. He can't necessarily pull the wires without damage so don't let him.

If you are getting paid at rate to dig the trench and lay the pipe then he is cutting into your paycheck.
 
njtrombley said:
Who defines electrical work and/or what is the definition of electrical work.
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The local building official or AHJ. It is different in each area.

Where I am an excavator can dig the trench but licensed electricians must install the conduits and have them inspected prior to back filling.
 
I don't know where your from in NJ we have the Board of Electrical Contractors a proffesional oversite board that would define the scope of electrical work.
 
As said it is a local issue. Leting him dig ditch is likely legal anyplace as you could hire him to do just that. That is as far as i would let him go unless you want the liabilty that goes with it.
 
I questioned a pool guy once as to why he did coordinate with me installing lights in a pool before he filled with water or at least put the lights in before he filled. His response was that he was not permitted to install the lights by law. (I am talking placing the lights and pulling cord through conduit to j-box, NOT hooking them up). I called the state (NC) and they confirmed. There is very little you can do without some sort of license and if you pull a permit for that job it is amazing how much you become responsible for.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
As said it is a local issue. Leting him dig ditch is likely legal anyplace as you could hire him to do just that. That is as far as i would let him go unless you want the liabilty that goes with it.
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I do agree with another contractor being able to dig the ditch, I neglected to mention that. That happens quite often.

RICK NAPIER said:
I don't know where your from in NJ we have the Board of Electrical Contractors a proffesional oversite board that would define the scope of electrical work.
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I would like to see a forum requirement on profile location, at least what state. The more I am on this site that I realize how helpful it is to respond to an OP when you have a better idea of where the work is being done. NC laws can be quite different from NJ and elsewhere.
 
Here in WV for doing electrical work, The definition of " Electrical work " Means the installation of wires, conduits, apparatus, fixtures, other appliances, equipment or systems for transmitting, carrying, controlling, or using electricity for light, heat, or power purposes. Controlling is not intended to mean low voltage thermostat temperature controls.
 
We are in Michigan. I feel the same as what you are all posting. It is up to the AHJ, the contract, etc. We have done jobs where the masons put in our conduit for us and never have a problem with it. We just don't feel comfortable having one Journeyman on the job with 6 excavators digging a trench, running wire etc. That, by Michigan law is illegal. But, when is it "electrical work"? What does a journeyman need to be on the job to supervise? You see how there are some grey areas?
 
I work in Maryland and VA, and we hire excavators. I believe we are ok for them to install conduit, but nothing else unless supervised. However, on federal property we are required by law to pay someone prevailing wage as an electrician as soon as they pick up a pair of pliars or conduit (anything buy a shovel) unless they are a registered apprentice.
 
Same goes here in NYC. Excavators are not permitted to install wires, conduits, apparatus, fixtures, other appliances, equipment or systems for transmitting, carrying, controlling, or using electricity for light, heat, or power purposes as billisa67 noted for his locale.

I also think you should contact the AHJ yourself to find out exactly what is and is not permitted to be done. How is it that an excavator fits the "qualified" requirement for installations I wonder...?

Just my 2 cents...
 
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