I was just curious as to the different philosophies about saving old material when removing it from a demo job or remodel. I am asking about it as far as commercial work. Do most contractors take the time to save old pieces of conduit? If so, do you save all of it, large or small and what are the benefits if any. Is it worth the time to store it until it can be used and to have your guys take more time taking apart old stuff and is it good practice to use dated material? I would appreciate the different ideas, thanks, justin
demo?
- Thread starter justin
- Start date
- Status
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: demo?
Generally I regard this as bad practice. MAYBE if some connectors, full unbent lengths of pipe or nipples etc. are salvaged in nearly new condition, OK, but this is rarely the case. Your customers are paying for new material and it's not ethical to install used unless you disclose it.
Generally I regard this as bad practice. MAYBE if some connectors, full unbent lengths of pipe or nipples etc. are salvaged in nearly new condition, OK, but this is rarely the case. Your customers are paying for new material and it's not ethical to install used unless you disclose it.
Re: demo?
I'd like to see this thread keep going, as my basic human instinct is to be as cheap as possible.
For commercial/industrial work:
I believe I would only use conduit runs / assemblies that where left in place or slightly sifted to a different place, and the starting / stopping runs continued with new. I would also re-use sealtite and fittings per their high costs and assembly time.
All only with owner's understanding and permission.
I would not take material from site to site.
[ November 23, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: tshephard ]
I'd like to see this thread keep going, as my basic human instinct is to be as cheap as possible.
For commercial/industrial work:
I believe I would only use conduit runs / assemblies that where left in place or slightly sifted to a different place, and the starting / stopping runs continued with new. I would also re-use sealtite and fittings per their high costs and assembly time.
All only with owner's understanding and permission.
I would not take material from site to site.
[ November 23, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: tshephard ]
Re: demo?
I am a staunch believer in conservation and like to see certain items such as conduit reused.
In some renovations this is taken into consideration and worded into the contract documents.
If not, the owner could be informed as Hbiss and Tshepard mention and offered a credit for these materials. (you don't have to give back the mark up)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the older EMT in 2.5" and up easier to bend without kinks than the newer stuff.
Well, 1.25" and up really.
Roger
I am a staunch believer in conservation and like to see certain items such as conduit reused.
In some renovations this is taken into consideration and worded into the contract documents.
If not, the owner could be informed as Hbiss and Tshepard mention and offered a credit for these materials. (you don't have to give back the mark up)
I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the older EMT in 2.5" and up easier to bend without kinks than the newer stuff.
Well, 1.25" and up really.
Roger
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: demo?
I have a friend who gets occasional opportunity from a scrap yard to have a whack at tearout on old malls being demoed before the dozers run through the place. He doesn't get much warning or time, usually 24/48 hours before the place gets flattened.
If there were some stores in the mall that were refitted recently before the place closed up, there can be a lot of near new stuff salvaged.
Some of those fancy indirect lighting fixtures used in some of the tonier boutique type places looked real good in the living room and basement of the new place he's been building (his own house, not for resale). The last mall demo yielded up around 100 2x4's Troffers that were less than a year old.
I have a friend who gets occasional opportunity from a scrap yard to have a whack at tearout on old malls being demoed before the dozers run through the place. He doesn't get much warning or time, usually 24/48 hours before the place gets flattened.
If there were some stores in the mall that were refitted recently before the place closed up, there can be a lot of near new stuff salvaged.
Some of those fancy indirect lighting fixtures used in some of the tonier boutique type places looked real good in the living room and basement of the new place he's been building (his own house, not for resale). The last mall demo yielded up around 100 2x4's Troffers that were less than a year old.
Re: demo?
I appreciate the info and I am also wondering just how efficient the practice of removing old material to be used somewhere else on the job is?. my mentality is that labor is what costs so much as opposed to the material, so just how efficient could this practice be? I am sincerely looking for as many different points of view as possible. also if you were to take the time to remove the old to reuse and then on top of that give credit for material less the markup it just isn't seeming to add up. i am sure there are 1000 different circumstances that could be involved, i would also like to be able to explain myself a little better to foreman who are die hard old timers that beleive this to be the way, as it may be, i just am not convinced yet and i am trying to gather as much info as possible before i head one way or the other, Justin
ps, I do beleive in using what conduit is already in place considering the condition is good or better.
I appreciate the info and I am also wondering just how efficient the practice of removing old material to be used somewhere else on the job is?. my mentality is that labor is what costs so much as opposed to the material, so just how efficient could this practice be? I am sincerely looking for as many different points of view as possible. also if you were to take the time to remove the old to reuse and then on top of that give credit for material less the markup it just isn't seeming to add up. i am sure there are 1000 different circumstances that could be involved, i would also like to be able to explain myself a little better to foreman who are die hard old timers that beleive this to be the way, as it may be, i just am not convinced yet and i am trying to gather as much info as possible before i head one way or the other, Justin
ps, I do beleive in using what conduit is already in place considering the condition is good or better.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: demo?
common sense should prevail -- diecast greenfield fittings vs mallable. i would not fool around with pipe or die cast fittings - it's hard to walk past a $30.00 angle greenfield fitting. but my warehouse is packed - but the past few years i really have been working at using this "stuff" up! in the last month i have saved over two grand. wire and fittings!!! if you got room for it - why not! tuna
common sense should prevail -- diecast greenfield fittings vs mallable. i would not fool around with pipe or die cast fittings - it's hard to walk past a $30.00 angle greenfield fitting. but my warehouse is packed - but the past few years i really have been working at using this "stuff" up! in the last month i have saved over two grand. wire and fittings!!! if you got room for it - why not! tuna
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
Re: demo?
Don't forget that there are costs associated with storage. Besides having a place for all the stuff, you have to be able to find it when you need it.
That said, I save a fair amount of stuff. Parts that are often used, such as EMT connectors, are an example.
Special parts that are often lost -like the screws that hold panel covers on- are another category.
Obsolete parts are another collection. When an old disconnect fails, it's nice to have a similar one in stock, so you only have to change the guts, and not have to wrestle with the pipe! Or, when you need an additional, replacement, or differently rated FPE, Zinsco, etc., it's nice to have one around.
Pipe and wire are cheap- I don't generally save them.
Devices are often in a sad state- they usually get tossed.
Expensive parts (HID bulbs) get saved.
Don't forget that there are costs associated with storage. Besides having a place for all the stuff, you have to be able to find it when you need it.
That said, I save a fair amount of stuff. Parts that are often used, such as EMT connectors, are an example.
Special parts that are often lost -like the screws that hold panel covers on- are another category.
Obsolete parts are another collection. When an old disconnect fails, it's nice to have a similar one in stock, so you only have to change the guts, and not have to wrestle with the pipe! Or, when you need an additional, replacement, or differently rated FPE, Zinsco, etc., it's nice to have one around.
Pipe and wire are cheap- I don't generally save them.
Devices are often in a sad state- they usually get tossed.
Expensive parts (HID bulbs) get saved.
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: demo?
lets look at another aspect of "demo".. ten years ago, before i stopped working for general contractors we did high grade office buildouts and re-models. we had to bid the electrical demo part of the job. we would be required to make the job "safe" for wall and ceiling demo. this would require us to identify and isolate high and low voltage circuits. we would then re-use these circuits on the new tenant layout and submit "as built" drawings to the engineer. that ment that the original 42 circuit panel would sufice for the new buildout. i was doing some infrared testing and counted 396 branch circuit breakers (low voltage) on one floor. how many circuits are buried in the ceiling? i guess they stop adding panels when the room is full? i believe the engineers are responible for much of this "stuff"! but i believe the job costs could be reduced if we still performed "electrical demos"... i used to bid whatever labor it required to make safe the floor - if we came across something that we needed in the future buildout we would salvage it or maybe a communication rack of 2 inch pipe that was easily removed. today?? i really can't believe more people aren't killed in the demo portion of jobs!!!
lets look at another aspect of "demo".. ten years ago, before i stopped working for general contractors we did high grade office buildouts and re-models. we had to bid the electrical demo part of the job. we would be required to make the job "safe" for wall and ceiling demo. this would require us to identify and isolate high and low voltage circuits. we would then re-use these circuits on the new tenant layout and submit "as built" drawings to the engineer. that ment that the original 42 circuit panel would sufice for the new buildout. i was doing some infrared testing and counted 396 branch circuit breakers (low voltage) on one floor. how many circuits are buried in the ceiling? i guess they stop adding panels when the room is full? i believe the engineers are responible for much of this "stuff"! but i believe the job costs could be reduced if we still performed "electrical demos"... i used to bid whatever labor it required to make safe the floor - if we came across something that we needed in the future buildout we would salvage it or maybe a communication rack of 2 inch pipe that was easily removed. today?? i really can't believe more people aren't killed in the demo portion of jobs!!!
Re: demo?
I used to save everything, because the electrician I apprenticed with saved everything, and operated on a 1.25 material margin. A few years ago I abandoned this practice when I decided that if I had to get an ulcer and manage a junkyard to make a living, it was a living I didn't care to make.
Now I throw away pretty much everything. It's not worth my time and effort lost to organize and store it and see that it gets used eventually. Old parts look old on the job, on your truck, they say bad things about your mother behind your back, etc. The customer is paying for new, just buy new, if the customer isn't paying for new... well, get new customers.
It does chap my *** to throw a 1.5" threadless rigid connector in the trash, but really, wth else am I going to do with it? Sit on it for 18 months until the day I finally need a 1.5" threadless connector and hope on that day I have it handy? Nuts to that. In the trash she goes, just because it's an expensive fitting doesn't mean it needs to own a piece of my garage.
Saving old thing because they "might come in handy someday" is how people end up with a trio of old Chevy's on the lawn. I'll pass thanks.
I used to save everything, because the electrician I apprenticed with saved everything, and operated on a 1.25 material margin. A few years ago I abandoned this practice when I decided that if I had to get an ulcer and manage a junkyard to make a living, it was a living I didn't care to make.
Now I throw away pretty much everything. It's not worth my time and effort lost to organize and store it and see that it gets used eventually. Old parts look old on the job, on your truck, they say bad things about your mother behind your back, etc. The customer is paying for new, just buy new, if the customer isn't paying for new... well, get new customers.
It does chap my *** to throw a 1.5" threadless rigid connector in the trash, but really, wth else am I going to do with it? Sit on it for 18 months until the day I finally need a 1.5" threadless connector and hope on that day I have it handy? Nuts to that. In the trash she goes, just because it's an expensive fitting doesn't mean it needs to own a piece of my garage.
Saving old thing because they "might come in handy someday" is how people end up with a trio of old Chevy's on the lawn. I'll pass thanks.
Re: demo?
not to rain on anyone's parade, but let me play the devil's advicate.
if a customer hires someone to do a job, they would expect it to be with new material. if the contractor spelled out a cost savings if he could use "used" conduit, the customer could think about it before saying use the old stuff for the installation. he may contact the insurance company and they would refuse to insure the building if old material was installed.
if the contractor does an installation, uses old material, and the customer finds out, then there can be a problem. insurance companies may not insure the building when old "used" material was installed, the customer may sue you for using what they call sub standard material, there is the liability of having the old material nick the wiring insulation and thus create a fire in the near future.
i had rather use new material, but that's my opinion.
p white
not to rain on anyone's parade, but let me play the devil's advicate.
if a customer hires someone to do a job, they would expect it to be with new material. if the contractor spelled out a cost savings if he could use "used" conduit, the customer could think about it before saying use the old stuff for the installation. he may contact the insurance company and they would refuse to insure the building if old material was installed.
if the contractor does an installation, uses old material, and the customer finds out, then there can be a problem. insurance companies may not insure the building when old "used" material was installed, the customer may sue you for using what they call sub standard material, there is the liability of having the old material nick the wiring insulation and thus create a fire in the near future.
i had rather use new material, but that's my opinion.
p white
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: demo?
pwhite,
forget the parade! what insurance company have you ever seen check an installation for material age? at best they would be looking at "general appearance! if it is passed by the ahj - they could care less. and most insurance companies can't even determine the cause of the claim!!!
pwhite,
forget the parade! what insurance company have you ever seen check an installation for material age? at best they would be looking at "general appearance! if it is passed by the ahj - they could care less. and most insurance companies can't even determine the cause of the claim!!!
Re: demo?
charlie tuna,
i went looking for house insurance last fall and all 4 insurance companies asked if i knew how old the wire was, its condition, and if the wiring met electrical codes. since i knew these answers, they did not inspect the house wiring.
otherwise, they all told me thay would have an inspector to look at the wiring before they would insure the home.
charlie tuna,
i went looking for house insurance last fall and all 4 insurance companies asked if i knew how old the wire was, its condition, and if the wiring met electrical codes. since i knew these answers, they did not inspect the house wiring.
otherwise, they all told me thay would have an inspector to look at the wiring before they would insure the home.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: demo?
Pwhite,that is becoming common.Often they have a form they want filled out and signed by a electrical contractor.They are trying to limit losses from insuring firetraps.Typically what they want to know is if it is K&T,grounded or ungrounded,exsposed wires,gfci protection,and the real biggy is that there are no grounded recepts on 2 wire romex.Inspection should take maybe an hour max and is easy money and more often than not results in some work.The cost is paid by the owner ,not them.
Pwhite,that is becoming common.Often they have a form they want filled out and signed by a electrical contractor.They are trying to limit losses from insuring firetraps.Typically what they want to know is if it is K&T,grounded or ungrounded,exsposed wires,gfci protection,and the real biggy is that there are no grounded recepts on 2 wire romex.Inspection should take maybe an hour max and is easy money and more often than not results in some work.The cost is paid by the owner ,not them.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: demo?
We did an install for a 5000 sq ft office, which was not occupied as they went under before we could finish. All of the material was installed new. A bank came in and took over the space removing all of this 'old' material.
What about that situation?
We scrapped it and let the mechanics on the job take what they wanted... it was pretty funny watching them take what they wanted, who was to get what.
That was a few years ago, and one of the guys still has the 'specialty' flourescent fixtures in his garage.
Like Noxx has said, buy it when you need it or your shop will soon become the 'junkyard'
What I keep is the real old stuff that I have not seen before. My shop is becoming the 'smithsonian' of our area. Other contractors will call me and give me old stuff.
Pierre
We did an install for a 5000 sq ft office, which was not occupied as they went under before we could finish. All of the material was installed new. A bank came in and took over the space removing all of this 'old' material.
What about that situation?
We scrapped it and let the mechanics on the job take what they wanted... it was pretty funny watching them take what they wanted, who was to get what.
That was a few years ago, and one of the guys still has the 'specialty' flourescent fixtures in his garage.
Like Noxx has said, buy it when you need it or your shop will soon become the 'junkyard'
What I keep is the real old stuff that I have not seen before. My shop is becoming the 'smithsonian' of our area. Other contractors will call me and give me old stuff.
Pierre
dan55
Member
- Location
- South Dakota
Re: demo?
New 100A service $1200. Getting a panel full of FP or Zinsco breakers... priceless. You don't have to charge full price for used material, but you sure might be able to gain a customer by having a hard to find breaker or part that someone else threw away.
New 100A service $1200. Getting a panel full of FP or Zinsco breakers... priceless. You don't have to charge full price for used material, but you sure might be able to gain a customer by having a hard to find breaker or part that someone else threw away.
- Status