Dentist office

[hhsting]

I have letter from governing body of dentist office tenant fit out in shopping mall type that states there is no patient care space. It is dentist office with dental chairs and OP rooms.

Is there any dentist office that does not have patient care space?

 

[roger]

Is there any dentist office that does not have patient care space?

Yes there are. If the AHJ has concluded it is not Patient Care it isn't

 

[roger]

I have done a few of these and with the exception of a few X-ray requirements there was nothing special about the wiring methods

 

[Elect117]

Just did a quick search in NFPA Link and found some references to dental offices.

Dental office is a new definition in NEC 517.2. There is also a definition for Anesthetizing Location, if that applies.

517.10 Applicability - is up to the AHJ's discretion. Areas not covered are business offices , corridors and waiting rooms in dental offices.

Falls under Basic Care - Category 3 type space.

Requires taper resistant receptacles where children might be present?
406.12 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles.
All 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt nonlocking-type receptacles in the areas specified in 406.12(1) through (8) shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles.
(1)Dwelling units, including attached and detached garages and accessory buildings to dwelling units, and common areas of multifamily dwellings specified in 210.52 and 550.13
(2)Guest rooms and guest suites of hotels, motels, and their common areas
(3)Child care facilities
(4)Preschools and education facilities
(5)Business offices, corridors, waiting rooms and the like in clinics, medical and dental offices, and outpatient facilities


517.45 Essential Electrical Systems for Other Health Care Facilities.
(A) Essential Electrical Distribution.
If required by the governing body, the essential electrical distribution system for Category 3 (basic care) patient care spaces shall be comprised of an alternate power system capable of supplying a limited amount of lighting and power service for the orderly cessation of procedures during a time normal electrical service is interrupted.
Informational Note:
See NFPA 99-2018, Health Care Facilities


From personal experience, they have all seemed exactly like a normal business office.

 

[hhsting]

Huh 2017 NEC Dental Office definition says examination and minor treatment occurs. See below.

Definition of Patient care space NEC 2017 says where examination or treatment of patient occurs

Earlier post says dental office can have no patient care space but then it is not dental office according to NEC 2017 Dental office definition.

So then there cant be dental office without patient care space? Earlier post is incorrect

 

[roger]

That's all well and good but you're missing this part.

Patient Care Area. Any portion of a health care facility
wherein patients are intended to be examined or treated.
Areas of a health care facility in which patient care is administered
are classified as general care areas or critical
care areas. The governing body of the facility designates
these areas in accordance with the type of patient care anticipated
and with the following definitions of the area classification

If the state or some other AHJ entity classifies it as a commercial or business building then that is what it is.

 

[roger]

BTW, I understand your confusion but there are many shopping mall dentist offices that are not wired under 517 requirements.

Dental surgery or Maxillofacial surgery centers are handled differently

 

[hhsting]

That's all well and good but you're missing this part.


If the state or some other AHJ entity classifies it as a commercial or business building then that is what it is.

But I thought governing body is Not the AHJ or state instead they are doctors, president, directors etc etc based off of definition of NEC 2017 517.2 definition of governing body?? How is this AHJ or state?

 

[roger]

The AHJ can be whatever the state or ruling party allows. It can be the doctors, nurses, or state healthcare agency.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

But I thought governing body is Not the AHJ or state instead they are doctors, president, directors etc etc based off of definition of NEC 2017 517.2 definition of governing body?? How is this AHJ or state?

For a dentist office, the governing body might even be the dentist.

 

[augie47]

But I thought governing body is Not the AHJ or state instead they are doctors, president, directors etc etc based off of definition of NEC 2017 517.2 definition of governing body?? How is this AHJ or state?

The NEC gives the requirements for a given location once the governing body classifies the location.
Much like determining whether to wire an area Class 1, Div I or Div II. An engineer/architect determines which applies and the Code gives direction on the wiring method.
The NEC does not classify patient areas or Hazardous areas... simply tells you the wiring method required once it is classified.

 

[david]

areas are classified as general care or critical care

then it says who is to disinate which
classification

if it states something is A or B

how is it not A or B just because, say, the dentist has the responsibility of deciding that based on a set of definitions to help make that determination

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[roger]

areas are classified as general care or critical care

then it says who is to disinate which
classification

if it states something is A or B

how is it not A or B just because, say, the dentist has the responsibility of deciding that based on a set of definitions to help make that determination

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See post #2, if it is not considered or licensed as Patient Care 517 doesn't apply.

 

[david]

I think you would be hard-pressed to find any authority who going to say a dentist, even in an office setting, is not providing patient care.

Dentist offices even in stand-alone buildings are usually classified as type B for building code purposes

A lot of dentist practice in buildings that also have receptionists who are in an office type setting

I doubt there are any legal dentist practices that are not governed by the Department of Health as a health care provider


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[roger]

I think you would be hard-pressed to find any authority who going to say a dentist, even in an office setting, is not providing patient care.

Dentist offices even in stand-alone buildings are usually classified as type B for building code purposes

A lot of dentist practice in buildings that also have receptionists who are in an office type setting

I doubt there are any legal dentist practices that are not governed by the Department of Health as a health care provider


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I'm not arguing with you but there are obviously some authorities that do not see it as Patient Care. As I said, I have wired a few of these in two different states and including the OP that would be three that treat them the same.

The dental chairs got HG receptacles but only because it was called out in the manufacturers instructions. They do not require anything specific to article 517. I don't know why that are treated that way but it is what it is.

 

[ramsy]

See post #2, if it is not considered or licensed as Patient Care 517 doesn't apply.

Would you agree, if the governing body AHJ provides written notice of no Patient Care Space, then neither can NEC 517.20 Wet Procedure Location exist?

 

[roger]

Would you agree, if the governing body AHJ provides written notice of no Patient Care Space, then neither can NEC 517.20 Wet Procedure Location exist?

Probably not needed anyways since the sink location would require GFCI protection.

 

[ramsy]

Probably not needed anyways since the sink location would require GFCI protection.

Yes, without written notice from a governing body, the Wet Procedure Location seems to be presumed for dental chair sinks, regardless of inaccessible outlets covered under the chair, or over 6ft away.

 

[jim dungar]

Yes, without written notice from a governing body, the Wet Procedure Location seems to be presumed for dental chair sinks, regardless of inaccessible outlets covered under the chair, or over 6ft away.

It has been more than 20 years since I sat in a dentist chair that had a spit sink. The new ones are just chairs, with a remote pedestal that contains the dentist tools including water and suction for rinsing. There may be a sink, in a counter top, for hand washing.

 

[ramsy]

It has been more than 20 years since I sat in a dentist chair that had a spit sink. The new ones are just chairs, with a remote pedestal that contains the dentist tools including water and suction for rinsing. There may be a sink, in a counter top, for hand washing.

In your experience, without written notice from a governing body, does determination of wet procedure location depend on dental chairs with a sink?