Have been getting a few opportunities to bid jobs that are design build. These are small jobs, for instance a tenant buildout for a dental office. I have all the special equipment requirements, and a floor plan, but do not have requirements for general power and lighting. This job will include demo of all electric in existing area, install new lighting and receptacles, and power for new dental equipment. I am trying to get as builts of existing install to see if I will have enough available power. How do you guys handle these jobs without engineered drawings? Does anybody use Volts design build software? or anyother types of software for design build?
Design Build
- Thread starter DAWGS
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tyha
Senior Member
- Location
- central nc
we have done a few design buid projects in the past. I think the situation you currently have is the dental equipment supplier has designed a small dental upfit using the existing dimensions of the space and pluged in his euipment and added some lights and recps. When we run into that situation we give the customer a budget price based on those drawings. You cant pull a permit around here without having an engineer at least sign off on it. They will usually take that to the engineer and have a permit set drafted and you can base a hard number on that. But for now what we would do is attach some unit prices to the euipment and fixture . $165 per light, $250 per eq connection etc. and add oh and profit for a budget number.
wbalsam1
Senior Member
- Location
- Upper Jay, NY
Remembering too, that the dentist occupancy requires a wiring method with a redundant ground in the patient care areas. :smile:
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Design Build
I am confused??? If you are performing a design build, doesn't this mean you are doing the design?
And if so, do you have an engineer on staff who can sign off on your design?
That is my understanding of how design build works.
I am confused??? If you are performing a design build, doesn't this mean you are doing the design?
And if so, do you have an engineer on staff who can sign off on your design?
That is my understanding of how design build works.
Pierre C Belarge said:
Yup, the design build, has become a buzz word, a lot of contractors in many trades, ad design build, and they can as long as they have licensed PE engineers on the payroll.
Another issue is, how can they get insurance for design work unless they have a PE liicense.
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
You Know
You Know
The owner gets what they pay for with design Build, I personally dislike this Service that could be provided. It frankly turns the table on the Architects and Engineers and rips them down to a minimum service that they provide.
Who ever owns the Big Hat controls it all, most times its the GC and we know who's interest they represent. Everyone else is there for there slice of the pie. It either comes down to a Buddy list of who does what or its open bids, and I haven't heard of many open bids for a Design Build, its all Good old Boy, BS, owner beware.
You Know
The owner gets what they pay for with design Build, I personally dislike this Service that could be provided. It frankly turns the table on the Architects and Engineers and rips them down to a minimum service that they provide.
Who ever owns the Big Hat controls it all, most times its the GC and we know who's interest they represent. Everyone else is there for there slice of the pie. It either comes down to a Buddy list of who does what or its open bids, and I haven't heard of many open bids for a Design Build, its all Good old Boy, BS, owner beware.
Bob NH
Senior Member
- Location
- The "Live Free or Die" State
Design-Build works for the customer only if the customer has adequate resources to write the specifications and contract, and the resources to inspect the work. Those resources may be in-house or contracted separately.
The Design-Build contractor must in fact produce a design that can be reviewed and approved for procuring permits, and used for inspecting the work.
It is important to make the point early in the contract that any deviations from the specifications will be brought to specification requirements at the contractor's cost, no matter what the expense or how forgivable the problem might be.
After the customer has demonstrated the ability and will to enforce the contract and specification terms, the contractor will determine that it is in his best interest to do it right the first time.
I learned this principle on one of my earliest jobs as an engineering inspector on a large bridge job. We made a contractor dig out and replace nonconforming backfill from behind a large abutment. After that experience he paid more attention to doing it right.
The Design-Build contractor must in fact produce a design that can be reviewed and approved for procuring permits, and used for inspecting the work.
It is important to make the point early in the contract that any deviations from the specifications will be brought to specification requirements at the contractor's cost, no matter what the expense or how forgivable the problem might be.
After the customer has demonstrated the ability and will to enforce the contract and specification terms, the contractor will determine that it is in his best interest to do it right the first time.
I learned this principle on one of my earliest jobs as an engineering inspector on a large bridge job. We made a contractor dig out and replace nonconforming backfill from behind a large abutment. After that experience he paid more attention to doing it right.
I have no problem whatsoever hiring architects or engineers to perform their function for a design build. In my (limited) experience, the customers who want design/build are ones that already trust me to perform the entire job (ie are already sold on me to do the work), and they trust that I will in turn hire good people to do the design portion. In addition, the engineers have no problem with it because they have to do way less work, and little or no field work, since they are practically spoon fed the information and plans, and simply need to verify calculations and bring any deficiencies to light/correct them (as opposed to pulling their hair out to get the information from normal customers).
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Around here a lot of jurisdictions you do not need engineered electrical drawings. Tenant space work like this can just be done by taking the A drawings, drawing in the lighting plan and the general use outlets. There really is not a lot of general use outlets required. 1 each room should work. You have the medical equipment requirements. Figure they will need minimal office equipment. Figure what they will need for mechanical. Get the mechanical contractors info or his phone # to see what the requirements are for that. Do the service calculation. Write the proposal with your scope of work. You can write it with "We are proud to provide our budget number for the project" If your scope is accepted as the design you can stick with your number. If they come out with engineered drawings, they had their budget, and should give you the opportunity to bid the drawings.
831
Senior Member
- Location
- South Jordan, Utah
Reading the other (11) replies thus far, I can say w/o hesitation that I've done more D-B than anyone in this thread; jobs up to $30M. Not a slam - don't take it personal, just an observation based on what I've read. I've done D-B work from the perspective of a professional engineering firm and a top 100 contractor. I've done D-B work as large as $30M - yeah... the Div 16 contract; conceptual, sold, designed, managed, etc.DAWGS said:
I don't know where you work, but 'round here, nothing (in the commercial realm) gets a permit w/o a stamp - period. So, you need a stamp and a design. Hmmmm...
I wouldn't waste my time on as-builts simply in the name of capacity, great info for other stuf, but not capaciy IMHO. Call the power company and ask for peak demand on the building. Here, peak demands occur in July/August. Take that data and compare it to the existing service i.e. stated peak demand of 175kW on a 800A 120/208 service gives you some room to work w/. Bear in mind that the previous tenant's general lighting, COs and HVAC are part of that existing peak. You're adding (plus or minus) only new xray, chairs, fish tank, etc. loads.
There are only (2) ways to do design-build work; the right way and the wrong way. The vast majority of people do it the wrong way. All parties are guilty in the wrong way; cheap owner, cheap/dumb GC, ECs lacking knowledge. Tuf to hear, but true.
Design-build demands that YOU are responsible for designing and building out the job. I'm going to suggest that instead of buying software to design it for you (don't know if that really exists, but you suggested it), take what you know about the space (or any other space you may be doing) and team up w/ a PE and build a relationship. Bring professional services to the table; to your "good" GCs and owners. Let them know you (and your PE) know your shiz and that you're not afraid to do things right. Does "right" cost more??? Sometimes. But, I prefer to suggest that "right" provides value that "wrong" can't touch. High value blows low cost away every time in my book. I can sell and stand behind high value any day. Shoddy work or poor design??? I'd rather not have my name associated thank you. I know a lot of div 16 electricians are down on "stupid engineers", but believe me, there's a meeting place and a need for both; a place where both can work to each other's advantage. Very few div 16 craftsmen have the professional skills of a PE, yet very few PEs have the creativiy and back-of-hand know-how of a skilled electrian. Think all PEs ought to spend a year in the field before the draw their first line? Try doing and more importantly really understanding all the aspect associated w/ bring a design from blank paper to an accurate, change-order free set of prints.
Find a good PE and ad their value to your work. Don't allow subjective "wants" from them enter into the equation. If you don't agree w/ what they're doing, bring it to table immediately. You're the boss; they're yours to manage.
I'd do work for good ECs all day long if I could. Trust me when I say that the right professional services will have you inundated w/ D-B work if you're smart and know how to sell it.
I'm stepping off my soap box now...
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john_axelson
Senior Member
- Location
- MN
cadpoint said:
Sound a bit bitter? Design Build can be and usually is a better solution than that of a complete Design/Bid/Build Solution. It all depends on the owner (educated owner or owner's rep always makes either project delivery method go better).
The key things to attempt to do for your loading is to either contact the Local Utility (if you can, don't know if the existing space was separately metered previously). You can also do a bit of field work yourself and field verify the existing loads and do your own load calc. The biggest thing to remember is that there isn't a short cut to doing it right.
831, I wouldn't be so quick to judge the previous posts. You don't know everyone's experience. Several of us have done 40 to 50 million dollar Division 16 projects as either Design Build or Design Assist.
As far as needing a stamp or not, it definitely depends on the area you work in. In Minnesota a licensed electrical contractor/master electrician can do the design. Strongly encourage those of you who do this to have your Errors and Omissions Insurance.
831
Senior Member
- Location
- South Jordan, Utah
john_axelson said:
Read what I wrote my friend... ...the other (11) replies..." Would have been better stated as "in this thread thus far" - will edit that in just a moment. The tone in the previous replies didn't leave me w/ the comfort level I was looking for. I was certain other big $ players might sign on. You don't say whether or not you play big D-B other than to say "several of us..." I'll take it that you do.
Design-Build is a great (perhaps the best) delivery method out there for a large number of projects. For any of us that know how to do it right, you know as well as I that the "we do design-build" folks polute (kinda strong) the discipline. It's a VERY uneven playing field from the eyes of someone that knows how to do it right, but the majority of GCs can only differentiate based on "low price" and "have you got it all..." type questions.
If I had wanted to bag on anyone, I wouldn't have replied. I'm out to help and I tend to get right to the point.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
you can hire PEs to help you along the way and get stamped drawings, just be careful they don't start controlling the project.
it is your job to work out what you want done (usually after dealing with the customer) and it is the PE's job to come up with an acceptable set of stamped drawings.
we used to get stamped drawings at my last job for a few grand for relatively small buildings. sometimes even less. most cases all they had to prepare was a single line diagram, and a lighting and power plan. often we did one and sent it to them and they all but copied it, and then stamped it.
they were handy sometimes because they could tell us things that a local entity required above and beyond normal codes, and what was the most common thing done in the area. no reason to do something that will draw attention.
i know some PEs do not think a whole lot of this approach, even claiming it is somehow unethical. but we had standardized designs that did not need to vary much from job to job, so why pay for someone else to redesign it and screw it up?
the only time i recall having to abandon this approach was for a job that required seismic calcs and structural drawings to meet the seismic zone.
it is your job to work out what you want done (usually after dealing with the customer) and it is the PE's job to come up with an acceptable set of stamped drawings.
we used to get stamped drawings at my last job for a few grand for relatively small buildings. sometimes even less. most cases all they had to prepare was a single line diagram, and a lighting and power plan. often we did one and sent it to them and they all but copied it, and then stamped it.
they were handy sometimes because they could tell us things that a local entity required above and beyond normal codes, and what was the most common thing done in the area. no reason to do something that will draw attention.
i know some PEs do not think a whole lot of this approach, even claiming it is somehow unethical. but we had standardized designs that did not need to vary much from job to job, so why pay for someone else to redesign it and screw it up?
the only time i recall having to abandon this approach was for a job that required seismic calcs and structural drawings to meet the seismic zone.
831 said:Read what I wrote my friend... ...the other (11) replies..." Would have been better stated as "in this thread thus far" - will edit that in just a moment. The tone in the previous replies didn't leave me w/ the comfort level I was looking for. I was certain other big $ players might sign on. You don't say whether or not you play big D-B other than to say "several of us..." I'll take it that you do.
Design-Build is a great (perhaps the best) delivery method out there for a large number of projects. For any of us that know how to do it right, you know as well as I that the "we do design-build" folks polute (kinda strong) the discipline. It's a VERY uneven playing field from the eyes of someone that knows how to do it right, but the majority of GCs can only differentiate based on "low price" and "have you got it all..." type questions.
If I had wanted to bag on anyone, I wouldn't have replied. I'm out to help and I tend to get right to the point.
Nice job 831, you described the way design build is viewed by many, not to worry about the big players, most of them are too busy making their vacation plans, to be on an electrical forum, nor would they care, what someone said about our project volume.
Quote: "It's a VERY uneven playing field from the eyes of someone that knows how to do it right, but the majority of GCs can only differentiate based on "low price" and "have you got it all..." type questions."
Good Point!
We found, working with the professionals, helped grow our buisiness, over the years.
831
Senior Member
- Location
- South Jordan, Utah
Learning who to "play with" is a hard process, but valuable too; the good customers become the "sweet spot" of doing business.satcom said:
831
Senior Member
- Location
- South Jordan, Utah
Agree 100%petersonra said:
I'd love to hear their case.
Electrical cable installation
Electrical cable installation
I read in the NEC (National Electrical Code) that we can install the electrical cable (THW or THHN ) in wet location. Do you know exactly what does mean ? . I suppose that we can install the cable in area with a few water .
Electrical cable installation
I read in the NEC (National Electrical Code) that we can install the electrical cable (THW or THHN ) in wet location. Do you know exactly what does mean ? . I suppose that we can install the cable in area with a few water .
831 said:
So it that electrical contract or the total project valuation?
Just trying to understand the order of magnitude here.
Design builds are favorite jobs. Even if its not a DB, I am almost always asked for some VE to bring projects into budget. The ability to design is a great asset for any EC to have.
I always work with a PE and use one of two respected and very professional engineering firms to reviews and seals my plans, and to somehow insinuate that this is somehow unethical is a bit insulting to me and them.
Another way of looking at this is, yes the customer does get what they pay for, but that also means they do not pay 4 times the market price for a fixture package the Architect specified as part of some good ole boy deal with a distributor to lock in their package in exchange for doing the budgets and lighting calcs. I wonder how many trips to Hawaii some of those fixture packages are worth anyways…
A few words of advice to the OP, forget the Asbuilts, do a full load calc and general design with estimate, but do NOT give them a copy of your plans until you have a contract or they may put them out to bid after you did all the work, and DO include in your estimate to pay to have your plans reviewed and sealed, it is worth the money. Once you have a deal, then do the full design and have your plans sealed before you get your permit.
Oh and the tools you need:
AutoCAD
Excel
NEC 2005
Copy of Local ordinances and design criteria.
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