Diesel Fuel Lines & Electrical feeders

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

medean64

Member
Can you install electrical feeders in the same duct bank with copper diesel fuel lines? See attached photo.

Thanks,
Mike
 

Attachments

  • PC111058.jpg
    PC111058.jpg
    141.9 KB · Views: 0
You're kidding right? (not trying to pick on you petersonra - it looks like a lot of people have looked at this thread, and since nobody else replied, I'm assuming you have the majority on your side.)

Nobody sees anything wrong with these diesel lines being in the same pull box with electric conductors?

Doesn't 300.8 apply?
 
steve66 said:
You're kidding right? (not trying to pick on you petersonra - it looks like a lot of people have looked at this thread, and since nobody else replied, I'm assuming you have the majority on your side.)

Nobody sees anything wrong with these diesel lines being in the same pull box with electric conductors?

Doesn't 300.8 apply?
Click to expand...

I would say no.

300.8 Installation of Conductors with Other Systems.
Raceways or cable trays containing electrical conductors
shall not contain any pipe, tube, or equal for steam, water,
air, gas, drainage, or any service other than electrical.
Click to expand...

I don't see a diesel line in a raceway or cable tray that also contains electrical conductors in this picture.
 
ron said:
Could the manhole itself be considered part of the underground raceway system?
Click to expand...

IMO it is neither a raceway or a cable tray. And that is the only places where these kind of foreign systems are prohibited.

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials
designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars,
with additional functions as permitted in this Code.
Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal conduit,
rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight
flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing, flexible
metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical metallic
tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular concrete floor raceways,
cellular metal floor raceways, surface raceways, wireways,
and busways.
Click to expand...

The concrete hole in the ground is not an enclosed channel of any type so it cannot be a raceway.

I don't see how a concrete hole in the ground can be considered to be a cable tray.

392.2 Definition.
Cable Tray System. A unit or assembly of units or sections
and associated fittings forming a structural system used to
securely fasten or support cables and raceways.
Click to expand...
 
I also agree with Bob P.

We can't change the name of an enclosure to a raceway just to create a violtion of something we may not like. :happyno:


I will also point out that diesel fuel does not generally require classified location methods.

I, like many in the Northeast store 250 to 500 gallons of diesel fuel (home heating oil) in our basements and there are no electrcal issues created by this storage
 
I find it hard to accept the code makers didn't intend handholes, pull boxes, splice boxes, and conduit bodies to be considered part of the raceway system.

IMO, if this is allowed, you would also have to allow any foreign systems in any electrical boxes. Taken to the extreme, in a dwelling, a plumber could run a 1/2" copper line through a 2"x4" box with a receptacle in it. And of course there is no fill calculation for a plumbing pipe, so you can't disqualify it on those grounds.

What if the conduits end in a switchboard? Do we have to allow diesel lines in a switchboard also?

iwire said:
I also agree with Bob P.

We can't change the name of an enclosure to a raceway just to create a violtion of something we may not like. :happyno:


I will also point out that diesel fuel does not generally require classified location methods.

I, like many in the Northeast store 250 to 500 gallons of diesel fuel (home heating oil) in our basements and there are no electrcal issues created by this storage
Click to expand...

Yes, not classified as explosive, but diesel will burn. And the lines could leak, and any leak will funnel the liquid right into the handhole, where we could have splices for individual conductors. So I see it as quite different than having a tank in the basement.

The soldered joints also give me concern. How do we know the plumber didn't burn a hole in the wire while soldering the pipe? Or if he has to fix or replace the soldered joints.

And, do we really want a plumber getting into an handhole with energized conductors to do maintenance?
 
steve66 said:
I find it hard to accept the code makers didn't intend handholes, pull boxes, splice boxes, and conduit bodies to be considered part of the raceway system.

if they intended 300.8 to apply to anything other than raceways and cable trays, they would not have gone to so much trouble to specifically limit it as they did.

IMO, if this is allowed, you would also have to allow any foreign systems in any electrical boxes. Taken to the extreme, in a dwelling, a plumber could run a 1/2" copper line through a 2"x4" box with a receptacle in it. And of course there is no fill calculation for a plumbing pipe, so you can't disqualify it on those grounds.

Just how would you get the tube into the box? there are no listed fittings to do that and the code requires they be listed.

What if the conduits end in a switchboard? Do we have to allow diesel lines in a switchboard also?

As an owner, you can make any requirements that exceed the minimum NEC requirements that you want to. Just what code provision would prohibit having a diesel line running through a switchboard?

Yes, not classified as explosive, but diesel will burn. And the lines could leak, and any leak will funnel the liquid right into the handhole, where we could have splices for individual conductors. So I see it as quite different than having a tank in the basement.

Just how would the diesel get to its ignition temperature? If the lines were above ground they could still leak into the concrete hole in the ground. Nothing to stop that at all. A properly made up splice does not add any hazard to the situation.

The soldered joints also give me concern. How do we know the plumber didn't burn a hole in the wire while soldering the pipe? Or if he has to fix or replace the soldered joints.

How is this any different than any other soldered tube that is near some other service that might be damaged by the heat of a torch?

And, do we really want a plumber getting into an handhole with energized conductors to do maintenance?

What is your point? If a plumber has to get in the concrete hole in the ground to work on the diesel lines, he has to exercise the appropriate precautions, which would be exactly the same precautions as an electrician would have to exercise if he were to enter the concrete hole in the ground.
Click to expand...

There may be good reasons not to do this, but I don't think you are going to find that there is any code that prohibits it.
 
petersonra said:
There may be good reasons not to do this, but I don't think you are going to find that there is any code that prohibits it.
Click to expand...


In my opinion, I still think its not allowed. But many of your points are just as valid as mine. I'll only add to a couple:

petersonra said:
Just how would you get the tube into the box? there are no listed fittings to do that and the code requires they be listed.
Click to expand...

The same way they got diesel piping into that handhole in the photo - inside a conduit that terminates in another box or handhole.

petersonra said:
Just what code provision would prohibit having a diesel line running through a switchboard?
Click to expand...

Is nothing sacred anymore!! :)



 
steve66 said:
In my opinion, I still think its not allowed. But many of your points are just as valid as mine. I'll only add to a couple:



The same way they got diesel piping into that handhole in the photo - inside a conduit that terminates in another box or handhole.



Is nothing sacred anymore!! :)
Click to expand...

you may "think" it is not allowed, but unless you can find some provision in the NEC that prohibits it, it is not prohibited by the NEC. There may be some other code that applies that would prohibit it.

I agree you could "legally" route a diesel line through a 2X4 box in the way you describe. I cannot come up with any code provision that would prohibit it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top