Disconnect 30Amp Above Panel

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nichesound

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The disconnect in the picture, I don't know the height of it, but being located above another panel and seeing the conduit surmisses that it services that panel below it as the disconnecting means for the panel or whatever it is, controller maybe? Shouldn't the disconnect be located on the side of that panel as nothing should be in front of it?
Thanks for any help.
JRLHeater Disc.jpg
 
It could violate the Art 404.8 6'7" rule but, again, if it feeds that heater it would me the exemption.
 
richwaskowitz said:
I can't tell what that disco is for, however does it not intrude on the required dedicated space, see 110.26 (F) (1) (a)? It might also be between a load and a branch circuit out of the panel below.
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"Dedicated space" is "dedicated" to the electrical installation. Other electrical equipment and raceways may be installed in that space. Any equipment governed by the NEC, whether related to the nearby unit or not. It is foreign systems like plumbing and HVAC that are prohibited in that space.
 
Not just foreign systems. Other electrical must be considered also under specific conditions.

When I stated "...that it does it not intrude on the required dedicated space, see 110.26 (F) (1) (a)", I was not saying that it does, but that it could and needs to be considered. 110.26 has restrictions on even electrical equipment when it comes to what can be located in another piece of equipment's working space.

I was remembering an illustration in Mike Holt's Understanding the 2008 Code at 110.26 (A)(3) where a transformer was placed under a panel. I went back to 2008 where it used to state at 110.26 (A) (3) "OTHER equipment such as ...cabinets, panels, etc., can be located above the electrical equipment, but must not extend more than 6 inches into the equipment's working space". I don't know how far that disco extends into that space. It is not just talking about foreign systems but other electrical equipment.

I see now that I mistakenly thought that meant 6 inches from the wall. 2014 however is worded a little differently. It says the same thing but it made me realize that the intrusion into a work space does not begin at the back of the equipment but past its front.
 
Carultch said:
"Dedicated space" is "dedicated" to the electrical installation. Other electrical equipment and raceways may be installed in that space. Any equipment governed by the NEC, whether related to the nearby unit or not.
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Although I don't disagree in principle with that viewpoint, I don't think the words in the code support it. One electrical component can be "foreign" to a panel. If the intent of this article is to keep space above a panel reserved for future conduits, then a fused disconnect above a panel (such as shown in the thread) will block the future installation of conduits. Does that violate the rule? I would say this is open to debate.

 
richwaskowitz said:
Not just foreign systems. Other electrical must be considered also under specific conditions.

When I stated "...that it does it not intrude on the required dedicated space, see 110.26 (F) (1) (a)", I was not saying that it does, but that it could and needs to be considered. 110.26 has restrictions on even electrical equipment when it comes to what can be located in another piece of equipment's working space.

I was remembering an illustration in Mike Holt's Understanding the 2008 Code at 110.26 (A)(3) where a transformer was placed under a panel. I went back to 2008 where it used to state at 110.26 (A) (3) "OTHER equipment such as ...cabinets, panels, etc., can be located above the electrical equipment, but must not extend more than 6 inches into the equipment's working space". I don't know how far that disco extends into that space. It is not just talking about foreign systems but other electrical equipment.

I see now that I mistakenly thought that meant 6 inches from the wall. 2014 however is worded a little differently. It says the same thing but it made me realize that the intrusion into a work space does not begin at the back of the equipment but past its front.
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That panel is likely less then 6" deeper then the disconnect though If the disconnect enclosure were 4" deep and the cabinet for the panel were 12" deep you very well have a working clearance violation here, all depends if the disconnect requires 110.26 clearance in the first place though. We really need to know more about it to know that for certain, as well as what ever local rules may apply to such circumstances.

charlie b said:
Although I don't disagree in principle with that viewpoint, I don't think the words in the code support it. One electrical component can be "foreign" to a panel. If the intent of this article is to keep space above a panel reserved for future conduits, then a fused disconnect above a panel (such as shown in the thread) will block the future installation of conduits. Does that violate the rule? I would say this is open to debate.

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Is the dedicated space for conduits only or is it for electrical system equipment in general?


Maximum switch height rule may be the only violation here, still need more information on that switch and what it is for to make that determination though. And we really can't tell how high it is from the photo anyway.
 
I tend to agree with Charlie that only equipment needed for the panel installation should be in that space-- such as a wireway or trough.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I tend to agree with Charlie that only equipment needed for the panel installation should be in that space-- such as a wireway or trough.
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wireway or trough is necessary for the panel installation? Most of the time it is a convenience or a design issue and not a necessity, raceway or cables still can be used.

The space is dedicated to electrical equipment, which makes sense to not allow plumbing, heating, etc. equipment in that space, but anything beyond that starts to turn into design issues IMO. Safe access to items requiring service while energized is understandable issue that should have NEC requirements. Then comes workplace safety and the fact you shouldn't work on things while energized as a general rule, but that is not exactly covered by NEC either, not directly anyhow.
 
Let's be precise here.
kwired said:
The space is dedicated to electrical equipment. . . .
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Not quite. The words are that the space is "dedicated to the electrical installation." That last word is the reason I think this is subject to debate. One could say that the "electrical installation" is anything and everything in the building that the electrician would install, from the service disconnect to the most remote receptacle. One could instead say that the subject under discussion is the switchgear, switchboard, MCC, or panelboard for which we are reserving the dedicated space. That would lead to the point of view that the phrase "electrical installation" refers to that component and only the other things that are directly associated with that component.

 
charlie b said:
Although I don't disagree in principle with that viewpoint, I don't think the words in the code support it. One electrical component can be "foreign" to a panel. If the intent of this article is to keep space above a panel reserved for future conduits, then a fused disconnect above a panel (such as shown in the thread) will block the future installation of conduits. Does that violate the rule? I would say this is open to debate.

Click to expand...

I can bend all conduits out of the way in MUCH less than 6 ft above a piece of equipment. I would think that 2 or 3 ft would be enough for this, if that is the intent.
 
Carultch said:
I can bend all conduits out of the way in MUCH less than 6 ft above a piece of equipment. I would think that 2 or 3 ft would be enough for this, if that is the intent.
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Not saying it can't be done, but several 4 inch conduits does become more of a challenge then a bunch of 1/2" to 1" conduits in that situation.
 
charlie b said:
Let's be precise here. Not quite. The words are that the space is "dedicated to the electrical installation." That last word is the reason I think this is subject to debate. One could say that the "electrical installation" is anything and everything in the building that the electrician would install, from the service disconnect to the most remote receptacle. One could instead say that the subject under discussion is the switchgear, switchboard, MCC, or panelboard for which we are reserving the dedicated space. That would lead to the point of view that the phrase "electrical installation" refers to that component and only the other things that are directly associated with that component.

Click to expand...
It is a precision matter. That switch is not associated with the panel, even though it does have a short raceway between the two? Maybe there is supplementary fuses in there because some equipment calls for fuses and not circuit breakers? Though I would probably put the fused disconnect closer to the load. If it is for that heater in the picture---IDK. Probably would still place it elsewhere myself, but not sure I would call it a violation if I were the EI.

Add: How many times do you see a receptacle (any rating, but most common a 5-15 or 5-20) nippled to just below a panelboard? Is every one of them a violation of the space dedicated to the panelboard or associated items?
 
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