Dishwasher and disposal

Status
Not open for further replies.
I

ishium 80439

Senior Member
Location
Denver foothills via the Horn of Africa
I received a correction notice that stated that the DW and diposal can't be on the same circuit. I looked at 422.10 (B) which referred me to 210.23. I don't see anything in there that prohibits this installation (provided the combined loads are within tolerance). I have not yet had a chance to speak with the inspector but I'm wondering if there is something that I am missing.
 
Hmmmm... Lets look at this one. Not sure of your code cycle, but I don't know if it has changed much....

[quote='02 NEC]210.23 Permissible Loads.
In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating. An individual branch circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets or receptacles shall supply only the loads specified according to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.
[quote='02 NEC hanbook commentary]The requirements of 210.23 are often misunderstood. An individual (single-outlet) branch circuit can supply any load within its rating. On the other side, the load, of course, cannot be greater than the branch-circuit rating. [/quote]
(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
Exception: The small appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (2), and (3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.
[quote='02 NEC hanbook commentary]Section 210.23(A) permits a 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit for lighting to also supply utilization equipment fastened in place, such as an air conditioner. The equipment load must not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating (7.5 amperes on a 15-ampere circuit and 10 amperes on a 20-ampere circuit). However, according to 210.52(B), such fastened-in-place equipment is not permitted on the small-appliance branch circuits required in the kitchen, dining room, and so on. [/quote]
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.[/quote]
I think he is assuming that one or the other is over 10A?

However he may be confusing this with 210.21(B)2 and would be essentially the same as applying 210.23(A)1 - as you would only if cord connected? Which it would be very easy to exceed with most GD's and DW's and pretty common these days IMO.

Like this combination: Both are over 50%, and combined over 80% (if cord connected), and total ~110% of the circuit rating.
10.2A
12A

But if you can have a "badger" GD - and an older no bells and whistles DW installed at final.... You might be hard pressed to find a new dishwasher that is either less than 12A, or that does other than state 15A* as a circuit requirement. (* failing to state the actual - but you would have to go off of nameplate once it got there, and would likely be over 10A.)
 
I'd be interested in knowing the outcome of this so, when you find out would you please post it ? I make these types of installations all the time and, depending on the inspector, I've failed kitchen remodels for a variety of reasons only to have them overturned by the State. One inspector told me that I was not permitted to drill a hole in the side of a sink cabinet and pass the cord through it because it voided the fire rating of the cabinet. Well, it turns out that the cabinet is considered furniture and is not rated and besides the plumber has to get his water feed and drain hoses through there. Then the same inspector tells me that he wants the breaker lock-out installed. So I say "but it's cord and plug attached - the disconnect is local". He says "Don't care - has to be installed". So, I just carry a bag of these on the truck at all times just to keep the job moving.

Anyway, I remember having a discussion here in the forum some time ago regarding what was considered "fixed in place" and from what I remember there was a good argument. Irrespective of whether you cord and plug attach an appliance like a dishwasher, you have to look at these 02 handbook code interpretations posted by E57 :
(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.
Click to expand...
If you make the argument that the dishwasher is not fixed in place you can use the 80 % rating. However, some will argue that once you install the 2 screws and attach the dishwasher to the underside of the counter top it is now considered fixed in place and you'll have to use this interpretation :
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.
Click to expand...
By the same token you have to ask is the disposal considered "fixed in place". While the captive mechanism is fixed to the sink drain, the actual unit cord unplugs and one twist counter-clockwise and the disposal drops out. So, I say it is not.
 
Before I changed around the way we wire I would always be quoted 110.3.b on our failures. The manufacturer calls for a dedicated circuit, it has to be installed with a dedicated circuit; it does not matter if code allows it if the manufacturer does not.

This is from a random dishwasher manual I pulled from a google search.
This dishwasher is designed for
operation on an individual 120 VAC,
60 Hz grounded electrical circuit. Use
required fuse (15 amp) or comparable
circuit breaker.
Click to expand...

Depending on the municipality you are in they may also have something in their ordinances stating that they must be on individual circuits.
 
goldstar said:
If you make the argument that the dishwasher is not fixed in place you can use the 80 % rating. However, some will argue that once you install the 2 screws and attach the dishwasher to the underside of the counter top it is now considered fixed in place and you'll have to use this interpretation :
By the same token you have to ask is the disposal considered "fixed in place". While the captive mechanism is fixed to the sink drain, the actual unit cord unplugs and one twist counter-clockwise and the disposal drops out. So, I say it is not.
Click to expand...
I would say both are fixed in place - unless the dishwasher is on wheels.... i.e. "two, or more appliances fixed in place" Otherwise - where else are you going to put them?

cowboyjwc said:
Ahhhh, another of those electrical myths that once again rears it's ugly head.
Click to expand...
Which, and what do you think is the myth???? IMO it is pretty easy to exceed circuit capacity with most of the 'high-performance' GD's and DW's, and it is pretty common to have this a 3-wire circuit - with good reason. People often pick the Harley of garbage disposals, and the Mazarati of dishwashers over the Honda's and Yugo's of that market.
 
e57 said:
I would say both are fixed in place - unless the dishwasher is on wheels.... i.e. "two, or more appliances fixed in place" Otherwise - where else are you going to put them?

Which, and what do you think is the myth???? IMO it is pretty easy to exceed circuit capacity with most of the 'high-performance' GD's and DW's, and it is pretty common to have this a 3-wire circuit - with good reason. People often pick the Harley of garbage disposals, and the Mazarati of dishwashers over the Honda's and Yugo's of that market.
Click to expand...

That is true in several cases, but not all. I think the EC ought to have an idea whether the new kitchen is going to be high end, mid range, or bottom dollar. I usually get a cut sheet with the appliance specs from our 2 best GCs.

Local amendments aside, I see no reason why the two cannot be on the same circuit if they are low amperage units.
 
e57 said:

I think he is assuming that one or the other is over 10A?

However he may be confusing this with 210.21(B)2 and would be essentially the same as applying 210.23(A)1 - as you would only if cord connected? Which it would be very easy to exceed with most GD's and DW's and pretty common these days IMO.

Like this combination: Both are over 50%, and combined over 80% (if cord connected), and total ~110% of the circuit rating.
10.2A
12A

But if you can have a "badger" GD - and an older no bells and whistles DW installed at final.... You might be hard pressed to find a new dishwasher that is either less than 12A, or that does other than state 15A* as a circuit requirement. (* failing to state the actual - but you would have to go off of nameplate once it got there, and would likely be over 10A.)
Click to expand...


Does anything in Article 210 apply to two appliances fastened in place and one appliance being over 10 amps?
 
Minuteman said:
I usually get a cut sheet with the appliance specs from our 2 best GCs.
Click to expand...
I can't begin to tell you what a lucky man you are. Go out and buy a lottery ticket while your on a roll. I generally don't get this info until the unit lands on the job.:grin:
 
I still haven't heard from the inspector. I called him during office hours yesterday and only got voice mail. He called me back an hour and a half after office hours from a blocked line and left a voice mail that he called me back. As soon as I can get some type of contact with him I will let you all know what his rationale is.

This is definately a lower end kitchen. It's in a 700 sf house and has about a total of 10' of counter space.

Infinity- That is what I am struggling with. Looking at 210.23(A)(2) I read this as saying if you are going to use a circuit to supply a fixed piece of equipment and it also supplies lighting equipment or non fixed equipment than the fixed piece can't exceed 50%. IMO I am dealing with 2 fixed pieces of equipment (I would define fixed as anything you cant just pick up and walk away with) so this section doesn't seem to apply.

And also my original quandry as to how he can write a correction notice for something we might do on the trim. FWIW he also wrote us up for having the hood on the same circuit as the countertop circuit- it wasn't, it just looked that way because of where we brought the HR; and because the counter top spacing didn't seem right- he felt there should be more countertop and thought we hadn't provided proper coverage- we did, he was incorrect. This portion of the story is why it is good idea to meet your inspectors for the inspection whenever possible.

BTW we are on the 2008.
 
e57 said:
Which, and what do you think is the myth???? IMO it is pretty easy to exceed circuit capacity with most of the 'high-performance' GD's and DW's, and it is pretty common to have this a 3-wire circuit - with good reason. People often pick the Harley of garbage disposals, and the Mazarati of dishwashers over the Honda's and Yugo's of that market.
Click to expand...

I think it's a myth, because even one of my inspectors said he called it, because it's in the code. No where in the NEC does it say that the DW and the disposal must be on seperate circuits, but contractors have thought that for years.

Now it may be a design requirement, because they both are pulling 15 amps, but like the OP stated, he has no idea what the requirements are for the equipment. Could be that both pieces together only pull 10 amps.
 
The inspector's response to this is really anti-climatic. I was not able to meet him for the re-inspection, but the GC did. The GC explaned to him what the counter lay out is, and that the hood and the SABC were not together. Apparently he did not even mention the DW and disp. It was right there on his correction notice and he was the one who wrote it, but he never asked anything about it and signed off on the rough.

This is a separate conversation but I honestly think the inspector on this job is losing it upstairs. We had also done a service change to this house on a separate permit. I gave him a lock box code (house is completely unoccupied) the morning of the inspection. He left me a VM later in the day and told me he had no access. I recalled the inspection and called him back the following day during business hours and reminded him that I had given him a lock box code. He seemed a bit flustered and told me he had a full schedule and would not be able to make until the next day. A few hours later he called and told me he was at the house and couldn't find the lock box.

There was a little more back and forth about the above but it was only about 3 weeks ago. When he was talking with the GC he asked why he had one electrician do the service and another do the kitchen. The GC tried to convince him that it was indeed the same company but the inspector was pretty adamant that it was someone different. This is an inspector I've worked with multiple times in the past.

I understand that there are about a gazillion EC's that work in Denver and after awhile they and the residences all must blend together, but I wasn't expecting this guy to remember me after 6 months after a one time inspection. This was a few weeks on an inspection that required some real back and forth between us and at the exact same address. Has anyone else had to deal with this type of thing?
 
ishium 80439 said:
This is a separate conversation but I honestly think the inspector on this job is losing it upstairs.
Click to expand...
At first I was going to say it's probably the altitude but I think we have his brother here in NJ. Must run in the family;)
 
infinity said:
Does anything in Article 210 apply to two appliances fastened in place and one appliance being over 10 amps?
Click to expand...
Yes - see 422.10(B) - which sends you directly to 210.23, which has 4 parts, only one of that applies. And that has 2 parts, either of, or both could apply. We don't know if plug connected, or the inspectors take on fastened in place.

ishium 80439 said:
Infinity- That is what I am struggling with. Looking at 210.23(A)(2) I read this as saying if you are going to use a circuit to supply a fixed piece of equipment and it also supplies lighting equipment or non fixed equipment than the fixed piece can't exceed 50%. IMO I am dealing with 2 fixed pieces of equipment (I would define fixed as anything you cant just pick up and walk away with) so this section doesn't seem to apply.

~This portion of the story is why it is good idea to meet your inspectors for the inspection whenever possible.

BTW we are on the 2008.
Click to expand...
Look at the title, and first part of the first sentance of 210.23(A)2 "Utilization equipment fastened in place" and you were directed there by 422.10(B). At least one of the items is... Depends on the Inspector views of 'fastened in place' the other may not be... 210.23 says you need to see, 210.23(A) says you can have total 80% of the circuit rating if cord connected(?), and depending on the interpatation of 'fixed in place' the fixed in place one of these two could only be 50% of the circuit. And 210.23 also says you need to see 210.24... Which sends you back to 210.23 - again....

FYI - My inspectors around here will not enter the building without the EC or his representivive present (Journey electrician or Foreman), and definatly not on a lock-box by themselves.... If you are not there to meet them at the job entrance - they leave. That way someone who speakes the same electrical language it there, and no telephone game misinterpations of what happened. He may see the GD as 'not fixed', he may be ticked that you were not there to answer his questions yourself.

cowboyjwc said:
I think it's a myth, because even one of my inspectors said he called it, because it's in the code. No where in the NEC does it say that the DW and the disposal must be on seperate circuits, but contractors have thought that for years.

Now it may be a design requirement, because they both are pulling 15 amps, but like the OP stated, he has no idea what the requirements are for the equipment. Could be that both pieces together only pull 10 amps.
Click to expand...
It does not SAY a GD and DW need to be seperate - but... Highly doubtfull - because as I mentioned before it is really hard to get a dishwasher under 10A... Or that does not request an individual circuit by manufacturer instruction. Try to find one... You could get two to fit on the circuit - but IMO you would need to hard wire both to do it... (to stay away from being limited to 80%) Then you would still need to be below to the total circuit rating - which is harder to do these days. Without spec's on hand - if I were an inspector - I too would question it up-front at rough, as if the contractor did not know the spec', how would he assume just one circuit is enough???
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top