Do all EGC's need to be tied?

[jaggedben]

So, the 250.148 does seem to be convoluted in words.
To me, it definitely reads in context of "ckt egc's".

And with metal boxes and yokes that are metal with EGC screw, don't they all bond even if the EGC wires themselves are not twisted together or tied directly to box?
...

One of the key points of 250.148, subsection B, is that a metal box must remain bonded when any devices are removed. So relying on the yoke to bond the box is definitely not allowed. The opposite - landing the EGC on the box and relying on the box to bond the yoke - is allowed.

 

[FionaZuppa]

One of the key points of 250.148, subsection B, is that a metal box must remain bonded when any devices are removed. So relying on the yoke to bond the box is definitely not allowed. The opposite - landing the EGC on the box and relying on the box to bond the yoke - is allowed.

So just bond that EGC when (at that time) the device is removed.

If there's a 4" EGC pigtail and you remove the device, do you also remove that 4" EGC pigtail, or just roll it into the box? I myslef don't like to have extra non-used wire in the box.

 

[FionaZuppa]

A switch is NEVER an outlet...the outlet is where the wire from the load side of the switch connects to the actual load. Also a box is never an outlet...the outlet is aways at the end of a conductor, the end that connects to the load.

If the util equip has a whip, and the whip goes into a box, the end of the BC, which also has the switch, then that box is the outlet, that's the point at which util equip is taking power from the ckt, that point just so happens to be the very end of the BC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If the util equip has a whip, and the whip goes into a box, the end of the BC, which also has the switch, then that box is the outlet, that's the point at which util equip is taking power from the ckt, that point just so happens to be the very end of the BC.

We will NEVER agree on this issue...even in that case, the connection that load end of the whip is the outlet.

 

[jaggedben]

So just bond that EGC when (at that time) the device is removed.

The code section doesn't give you an alloted amount of time to interrupt the ground fault path, it just says to not interrupt it.

If there's a 4" EGC pigtail and you remove the device, do you also remove that 4" EGC pigtail, or just roll it into the box? I myslef don't like to have extra non-used wire in the box.

I'd prefer to leave the pigtail in the box for when I come back to re-install the replacement device or a different one.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The code section doesn't give you an alloted amount of time to interrupt the ground fault path, it just says to not interrupt it.


I'd prefer to leave the pigtail in the box for when I come back to re-install the replacement device or a different one.

You did not say "replace", you said "remove".

If the task was to replace at a later time, then by all means leave it.
If "removing" the device, kinda implies not replacing it, I would remove the extra.

NEC code is words for installing. Where does it dictate that you cannot interrupt an EGC?

 

[FionaZuppa]

We will NEVER agree on this issue...even in that case, the connection that load end of the whip is the outlet.

The thingy in the box it comes in, including the already attached whip (no on thingy box to be seen), is the equip. Where that whip gets power from (presumably from a BC in a jbox), is the "outlet".

You see it otherwise?

 

[jaggedben]

.

NEC code is words for installing. Where does it dictate that you cannot interrupt an EGC?

250.148(B) as I already said.

 

[FionaZuppa]

250.148(B) as I already said.

Ok, so if the ckt-1 BC ends in the box, and that EGC is not tied to any other EGC, and is a proper BC (meaning the EGC carries all the way back to panel EGC bus) how would it be "interrupted" by removing the device? The EGC is still a fully functional EGC and nothing is interrupted.

I guess you might run into this interrupt issue if, say you twisted five EGC wires with one or more pigtails, and then you remove the device and want to remove that pigtail, now you need to muck around with the twist, probably gonna interrupt the EGC. But, I rarely twist with nuts, I use push or Wago lever "nuts".

(B) seems to suggest that when you remove an item you don't undo any EGC's that are tied together (those that need to continue), "CKT" EGC's. I read 250.148 to be in context of "CKT". And in that context all of 250.148 still works a-ok.

In my example, two ckt's in the box so two EGC's, and when tied together the EGC ohms will be less than one EGC itself, but in NEC the one EGC (per ckt) is 100% acceptable for a BC. Thus, the logic is not adding up for why all ckt EGC's should be tied together.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The thingy in the box it comes in, including the already attached whip (no on thingy box to be seen), is the equip. Where that whip gets power from (presumably from a BC in a jbox), is the "outlet".

You see it otherwise?

And it wouldn't really matter if the thingy had a box on the side of it where internal wires are spliced to the whip. The "outlet" is a point on the BC wiring where power is taken. The whip is not part of the BC wiring.

 

[jaggedben]

Ok, so if the ckt-1 BC ends in the box, and that EGC is not tied to any other EGC, and is a proper BC (meaning the EGC carries all the way back to panel EGC bus) how would it be "interrupted" by removing the device? The EGC is still a fully functional EGC and nothing is interrupted.

Go back to post #21. If the EGC going back to the panel is landed on the device, and the device is bonding the box, then the box and any downstream EGCs connected to it are interrupted when you remove or replace the device. This is why, when using metal boxes, we land EGCs on the box and not the device.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Go back to post #21. If the EGC going back to the panel is landed on the device, and the device is bonding the box, then the box and any downstream EGCs connected to it are interrupted when you remove or replace the device. This is why, when using metal boxes, we land EGCs on the box and not the device.

It's assumed a metal box is at least already bonded to some EGC. My point becomes in focus when say you bring a 2nd ckt into that same box.

Metal boxes make it easier, and even with metal box that already in bonded from ckt-1 EGC, bringing in ckt-2 will not change or interrupt that bonding, and, with ckt-2 EGC on the "device" yoke (lets say a switch), the yoke then bonds when attached to box (it is however not an ideal bond). If you remove the switch then you have a floating EGC wire to deal with.

.........but I am talking about NM-B in plastic boxes.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The thingy in the box it comes in, including the already attached whip (no on thingy box to be seen), is the equip. Where that whip gets power from (presumably from a BC in a jbox), is the "outlet".

You see it otherwise?

I do.

 

[Fred B]

.........but I am talking about NM-B in plastic boxes.

1. If you have an NM box and wire entering or passing thru you will almost always have splices. All EGC within an enclosure are to be bonded together (250.148). Only exception might be 250.146(D) for isolated grounding, but don't see that possible with NM-B terminating or splicing in a common enclosure with another NM-B circuit.
2. If you have a continuous uninterrupted circuit conductor set, why are you entering the NM-B into the enclosure with the other circuit in the first place? NM-B doesn't need to be in or pass thru an enclose if it is not spliced or terminated.

 

[FionaZuppa]

1. If you have an NM box and wire entering or passing thru you will almost always have splices. All EGC within an enclosure are to be bonded together (250.148). Only exception might be 250.146(D) for isolated grounding, but don't see that possible with NM-B terminating or splicing in a common enclosure with another NM-B circuit.
2. If you have a continuous uninterrupted circuit conductor set, why are you entering the NM-B into the enclosure with the other circuit in the first place? NM-B doesn't need to be in or pass thru an enclose if it is not spliced or terminated.

"is to be" ?
Why, what's the reason why?

One end of one ckt-2 ends on a 3way switch. The other ckt-1 feeds in, splices to a dual recept, then goes on it's merry way. Ckt-1 was existing, ckt-2 was also existing at the other 3way switch box, and the 14-3 runners come over to the 2gang box.

All EGC's in the 2gang have continuity to panel bus bar, and the spliced ckt in that box has all it's EGC's bonded together. All EGC's do what EGC's are supposed to do.

I just don't understand the "required" part to bond the various ckt EGC's together. Per ckt makes sense.
If it were two 1boxes side by side but separated just enough to take a faceplate (a ckt per box), should we not jump the two boxes with a EGC in order to bond all the EGC's in that close proximity, for whatever reason doing so is better?

 

[FionaZuppa]

I do.

But that's wrong.

Outlet is a point on BC wiring where power is taken. The whip is not a part of the BC wiring. Where the open end of that whip meets the BC wiring, is the point, or "outlet".