Do these before 1960 apartment units need to be up to the 2020 NEC code

F

fandi

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Hello All,
If no unit subpanel replacement, not sure if these existing conditions are violations and obligated to conform with the 2020 NEC code (current code cycle in California):
- Some units don't have kitchen countertop receptacle for small appliances. Some units do but the circuits are used as convenience receptacles in the units.
- As-built drawings show bathroom circuit is shared with living space.
- No GFCI protection in kitchens and bathrooms.
- No AFCI protection throughout the units.
I believe the mention of unit subpanel replacement above is irrelevant to whether there's code violation or not but I asked anyway. I think the existing conditions can stay unless the unit wirings are re-wired. But please let me know what you think. Thank you.
 
If it was legal when installed, then no changes are needed. If you're replacing the panel, you can reconnect everything as it was as far as I know. The local inspector may have other ideas.
 
You can run into insurance inspectors that might require things get updated to prevent lawsuits or claims. Sometimes they will issue notices for corrections regardless of whether or not it was legal when installed.

Eddie is correct in what he said. If nothing has been touched and it was legal when installed, it is considered just fine. If the unit is being remodeled, regardless of the subpanel being replaced, or upgraded, then the AHJ (LADBS) might require you to make modifications to bring those circuits to code. For example, if you apply for a bathroom remodel, they might require title 24 occupancy sensor for the bathroom light switch and GFCI for the receptacle.

That can extend to the kitchen if you are also remodeling the kitchen.
 
fandi said:
Hello All,
If no unit subpanel replacement, not sure if these existing conditions are violations and obligated to conform with the 2020 NEC code (current code cycle in California):
- Some units don't have kitchen countertop receptacle for small appliances. Some units do but the circuits are used as convenience receptacles in the units.
- As-built drawings show bathroom circuit is shared with living space.
- No GFCI protection in kitchens and bathrooms.
- No AFCI protection throughout the units.
I believe the mention of unit subpanel replacement above is irrelevant to whether there's code violation or not but I asked anyway. I think the existing conditions can stay unless the unit wirings are re-wired. But please let me know what you think. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Not sure if this is helpful but i had a 75 unit building 2 units affected by fire. The panels were all federal pacific. It was deemed all 75 units needed panels replaced. There was a 3 wire feed to all panels between fire inspection and insurance and electrical inspection all units needed a new 4 wire feed. This was of course an extreme case.

But in a community 10 miles away around 50 units insurance required all federal pacific panels to be replaced, and city and inspection was OK with 3 wire feed panel replacement only.
 
fandi said:
Hello All,
If no unit subpanel replacement, not sure if these existing conditions are violations and obligated to conform with the 2020 NEC code (current code cycle in California):
- Some units don't have kitchen countertop receptacle for small appliances. Some units do but the circuits are used as convenience receptacles in the units.
- As-built drawings show bathroom circuit is shared with living space.
- No GFCI protection in kitchens and bathrooms.
- No AFCI protection throughout the units.
I believe the mention of unit subpanel replacement above is irrelevant to whether there's code violation or not but I asked anyway. I think the existing conditions can stay unless the unit wirings are re-wired. But please let me know what you think. Thank you.
Click to expand...
@fandi
Please update your profile to include your occupation.
 
While 'grandfathering' is basically informal it's basically unheard of for AHJs to require changes to existing stuff that isn't being touched. What is the scope of work that raises the question?
 
dm9289 said:
But in a community 10 miles away around 50 units insurance required all federal pacific panels to be replaced, and city and inspection was OK with 3 wire feed panel replacement only.
Click to expand...
Yep, encountered that. And now encountered that the subpanel can be replaced in place even if it's in a closet (a huge savings).

To @fandi you need to tell us more about who you are, and what you're trying to get done.
There's a LOT of activity due to insurance cancellations on electrical. But what the heck is your part?

What's required by code
What's required by insurance
What's required by a balanced risk assessment

May all differ, and some may be poor value. There's probably lower hanging safety fruit at the building than the items you listed.

Unfortunately, only the insurance companies really know in a "big data" sense what's actually causing claims in the field, and they're not saying much of anything, not wanting to tip their competitors. Capitalism at its finest.
 
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