romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Do these make sense?
- Thread starter romex jockey
- Start date
- Status
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Not a user, nor an installer.
Yes, they make sense, if you’re are selling them.
Yes, they make sense, if you’re are selling them.
I am not familiar with that model but if it can do what I would expect of it at the price, it has serious applications.
It would have to do data logging and the UI, how you look at the data, would have to very user friendly. There are a lot of times in troubleshooting, you're going to have a defective appliance, something that still runs apparently but is just sucking down twice what it should in excess runtime, short cycling, harder than normal duty.
That's what I would be looking for. So you still need an experienced 'tech' to hook it up and then read and interpret the results. The direction those things are going, the loads have a current signature that the data logger is looking for to identify and segregate loads. So there will be a lot of information but you will need an experienced eye to read it and diagnose the problem.
I think it would be a good or very useful thing to offer the customer. Don't install it and walk away. It's a survey service. Hook up your data logger tool for 60 days or so and give them a read of the data. If you were to install 10 of them, only 50 customers in 10,000 would actually use the thing productively. But if you use one device to perform 10 surveys, you could have a hit rate of 1 out of 10 or better at finding something the customer can improve on. It would have to be part of a testing service.It still needs a skilled operator.
It would have to do data logging and the UI, how you look at the data, would have to very user friendly. There are a lot of times in troubleshooting, you're going to have a defective appliance, something that still runs apparently but is just sucking down twice what it should in excess runtime, short cycling, harder than normal duty.
That's what I would be looking for. So you still need an experienced 'tech' to hook it up and then read and interpret the results. The direction those things are going, the loads have a current signature that the data logger is looking for to identify and segregate loads. So there will be a lot of information but you will need an experienced eye to read it and diagnose the problem.
I think it would be a good or very useful thing to offer the customer. Don't install it and walk away. It's a survey service. Hook up your data logger tool for 60 days or so and give them a read of the data. If you were to install 10 of them, only 50 customers in 10,000 would actually use the thing productively. But if you use one device to perform 10 surveys, you could have a hit rate of 1 out of 10 or better at finding something the customer can improve on. It would have to be part of a testing service.It still needs a skilled operator.
MAC702
Senior Member
- Location
- Clark County, NV
What they are is not in the SUBJECT line or even in the OP at all. I'm not going to watch a video to find out what the thing is.
Last edited by a moderator:
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Basically, it's a Wi-Fi CT for residential use. Allows for monitoring and recording using a smart phone.
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190825-1645 EDT
Do energy and power monitors make sense? Possibly.
The video is worthless.
I have several TED systems that are devices that monitor power, energy, and voltage. Figure 9.8.2.2 at my website http://beta-a2.com/energy.html is such a plot from a TED 1000 System.
Somewhat similar information can be obtained from power company smart meters. But I can not get 1 second resolution, and voltage is not available to me.
Algorithms that look at total house power input to deduce what specific equipment is on are not very effective. Thus, I suggest that function does not justify the purchase of such monitoring equipment.
I am not particular;y impressed with TED systems, but they are probably better than the one referenced in this thread, and have provided me useful information.
.
Do energy and power monitors make sense? Possibly.
The video is worthless.
I have several TED systems that are devices that monitor power, energy, and voltage. Figure 9.8.2.2 at my website http://beta-a2.com/energy.html is such a plot from a TED 1000 System.
Somewhat similar information can be obtained from power company smart meters. But I can not get 1 second resolution, and voltage is not available to me.
Algorithms that look at total house power input to deduce what specific equipment is on are not very effective. Thus, I suggest that function does not justify the purchase of such monitoring equipment.
I am not particular;y impressed with TED systems, but they are probably better than the one referenced in this thread, and have provided me useful information.
.
I did not look at the video either but there are applications if you know what to look for. Typical would be an old fridge or A/C that just runs and runs because its 20 years old. New fridge could be free after the energy savings from the old fridge. I would not fall for the marketing hype that it will tell you when it's smart to buy a new fridge or turn down the lights.
The technology has the promise of using current signatures to identify and log loads, but you still have to try out the implementation to see if it can do the job. Once you get used to the system, it's possible it may be useful for when a customer reports trouble and is willing to pay to have the thing hooked up for some monitoring. Something like the device suggested, a smart current sensing data logger that can identify loads.
The Nest thermostat only promised to adjust your heating system control. This thing is marketed as, 'it will tell you when you need to upgrade appliances and equipment'. Not by itself with the average homeowner techie reading it, even if they know their $500. electric bill is too high,
There is a market for finding defective appliances that are doubling up on the electric bill, it happens all the time. I can tell people what to look for and drill in with a few questions. I am sure the current sensing AI is not going to give the same suggestions I would, but I would know right away if it's got something interesting or is just bs'ing me. It would need an experienced eye reading and interpreting the data.
To make money they may try cheap hardware but then sell subscriptions to the cloud data and the AI charting platform.
The technology has the promise of using current signatures to identify and log loads, but you still have to try out the implementation to see if it can do the job. Once you get used to the system, it's possible it may be useful for when a customer reports trouble and is willing to pay to have the thing hooked up for some monitoring. Something like the device suggested, a smart current sensing data logger that can identify loads.
The Nest thermostat only promised to adjust your heating system control. This thing is marketed as, 'it will tell you when you need to upgrade appliances and equipment'. Not by itself with the average homeowner techie reading it, even if they know their $500. electric bill is too high,
There is a market for finding defective appliances that are doubling up on the electric bill, it happens all the time. I can tell people what to look for and drill in with a few questions. I am sure the current sensing AI is not going to give the same suggestions I would, but I would know right away if it's got something interesting or is just bs'ing me. It would need an experienced eye reading and interpreting the data.
To make money they may try cheap hardware but then sell subscriptions to the cloud data and the AI charting platform.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
__dan nails it. If their magic processing is smart enough to actually figure out which loads are running and report this to Joe User then it would be pretty nifty, but I suspect that most of the capability is vaporware. "Over time more and more devices are discovered as the sense community grows."
In addition to the hardware, I wonder how much time their users donate by identifying loads for their big data collection.
In addition to the hardware, I wonder how much time their users donate by identifying loads for their big data collection.
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
It tells you, via your phone, what’s running. I guess for the phone-in-your-face-24/7 crowd it makes some small amount of sense, because how else would they know that the drier is on?
But really, do you NEED to know that your drier is on, or that your daughter is using a curling iron? Or worse???
{ALERT! Small unknown plug-in appliance is operating in bedroom, lights are off, stereo is on}
No thanks, I don’t want to know...
But really, do you NEED to know that your drier is on, or that your daughter is using a curling iron? Or worse???
{ALERT! Small unknown plug-in appliance is operating in bedroom, lights are off, stereo is on}
No thanks, I don’t want to know...
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
So ,as a diagnostic tool , this is limited?
~RJ~
~RJ~
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
No. It is marketed toward the consumer, but professionals can get some use out of it.
I have the TED system and have used it to help clients figure out where their energy is going when they thought their bills are too high. Never really uncovered a faulty appliance, but did show them that certain appliances are using more energy than they may realize and that usage does add up.
My TED is a little older but still can be remotely accessed if you know how to set it up, this Sense is probably designed more for today's smart phones, but still captures mostly the same information it appears. TED also had the ability to capture load signatures, they are not completely fool proof, but unless you have more than one load with a similar signature can be quite useful for some of the major loads you wish to track.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
The power company sends me a paper every month telling me where I stand among newer homes given the same equipment etc. That is, electric heat, ac, etc. They also state what percentage I used in certain areas such as heat or ac. How do they know this, Idk
I have a standard saying, I can look at any house on any street (house built before 1980 or so) and I already know the house needs a roof, windows, boiler, siding. So I would wag the house needs $60,000. right off the bat before seeing it and before touching any interior refresh.
I am at the point I would look at an older house and I might say the siding needs to be peeled and layer(s) of rigid foam board and / or Roxul insulation would go up on the outside, proper vapor barrier in the right place and maybe a specified air gap between layers, flashed and tied into the new windows, then you can reside it.
Now how many jobs like that can I sell. None except to myself.
You can monitor the condition and get a nice report about it. Owner may read it once or twice and then he forgets he owns the thing. This device, looks like the panel has to be opened and the current clamps go on the mains. There are a lot of guys who would change their own dimmer switch but would usually never take the main panel cover off. Same guys need a boiler, roof, windows, siding ...
I did not dig into the website, just a quick glance, but I saw the promo where the existing user says 'wow this thing told me I could save money with heat pump DHW'. That information is already available without the data logger. They are either targeting the device to idiot early adopters who can be encouraged to take the cover off their main electric panels, have an adrenaline inducing adventure in their own basements seeing if they can not cook themselves. I would inquire further to see if the company is there to service and support the customers.
Unless the customer pulls the meter themselves, power will still be on to the conductors at the main breakers where the current clamps would likely go. If the company represents that the customer should have an electrician install the device, they should also have good contractor support and target their market that way.
The first generation Nest was marketed as something every homeowner could install themselves and the AI would take it from there.
But the existing old stat wiring was mostly all two conductor switch leg and the Nest really ran properly only with a third conductor that was the steady neutral or common, to power the device through R and common. For the two wire switch leg circuit the Next would scavenge power across the open circuit to run the cpu and wifi. My brother in law did that, changed everything himself, and the Nest would turn his Taco circ control into a buzzer. I though it was going to burn down right there in front of me when I saw it, but the brother in law super smart guy did not seem to notice the Taco control was chattering. They sold something that was not suitable for the application, and they should have known it would smoke somebody's heating or cooling equipment.
I am at the point I would look at an older house and I might say the siding needs to be peeled and layer(s) of rigid foam board and / or Roxul insulation would go up on the outside, proper vapor barrier in the right place and maybe a specified air gap between layers, flashed and tied into the new windows, then you can reside it.
Now how many jobs like that can I sell. None except to myself.
You can monitor the condition and get a nice report about it. Owner may read it once or twice and then he forgets he owns the thing. This device, looks like the panel has to be opened and the current clamps go on the mains. There are a lot of guys who would change their own dimmer switch but would usually never take the main panel cover off. Same guys need a boiler, roof, windows, siding ...
I did not dig into the website, just a quick glance, but I saw the promo where the existing user says 'wow this thing told me I could save money with heat pump DHW'. That information is already available without the data logger. They are either targeting the device to idiot early adopters who can be encouraged to take the cover off their main electric panels, have an adrenaline inducing adventure in their own basements seeing if they can not cook themselves. I would inquire further to see if the company is there to service and support the customers.
Unless the customer pulls the meter themselves, power will still be on to the conductors at the main breakers where the current clamps would likely go. If the company represents that the customer should have an electrician install the device, they should also have good contractor support and target their market that way.
The first generation Nest was marketed as something every homeowner could install themselves and the AI would take it from there.
But the existing old stat wiring was mostly all two conductor switch leg and the Nest really ran properly only with a third conductor that was the steady neutral or common, to power the device through R and common. For the two wire switch leg circuit the Next would scavenge power across the open circuit to run the cpu and wifi. My brother in law did that, changed everything himself, and the Nest would turn his Taco circ control into a buzzer. I though it was going to burn down right there in front of me when I saw it, but the brother in law super smart guy did not seem to notice the Taco control was chattering. They sold something that was not suitable for the application, and they should have known it would smoke somebody's heating or cooling equipment.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Don't know.
They look pretty interesting. I'll likely buy one (solar) for home DIY science fair projects.
I wonder if I could convince them to make a 3ph, 480V unit (non-solar)
If it was no more than double I could buy one for work.
Thanks for link
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190826-1034 EDT
Dennis:
The TED system combines both phases into one current signal, and it monitors one phase voltage in the 1000 system. From this power is calculated. And integrated power is energy. The TED system uses a very good power monitoring chip, but their current probes cause substantial error at low power factor. Whereas the simpler Kill-A-Watt EZ does a good job at low power factor by using a resistive shunt.
In power company meters I don't know if monitoring is done the same. Assume it is essentially the same except they probably monitor 240 on single phase systems. Then the size of load could possible indicate to them electric heat, or air conditioning.
If the power company monitors power individually on the two phases, then they could identify 240 V loads, and only collect those large loads by seeing the same load change on both phases.
From the main meter point it is very difficult to identify what loads turn on when and off when. It takes a substantial amount of computing power and memory, and resolution finer than 1 second to identify individual loads with any dependability.
Old data from my DTE meter. This type of data not available anymore. http://beta-a2.com/energy_c.html
TED 1000 and 5000 data format. http://beta-a2.com/engry_b.html
Repeat of TED data from my home. http://beta-a2.com/engry_b.html
Plot P29 is from a TED 1000 with a single load of one freezer. Put several gallons of water in the freezer and there is a big change in the on time until the water cools. Plot P27 is various different loads. Try to reliably pick out individual loads. http://beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html
I have not played with TED much lately. So no new data.
.
Dennis:
The TED system combines both phases into one current signal, and it monitors one phase voltage in the 1000 system. From this power is calculated. And integrated power is energy. The TED system uses a very good power monitoring chip, but their current probes cause substantial error at low power factor. Whereas the simpler Kill-A-Watt EZ does a good job at low power factor by using a resistive shunt.
In power company meters I don't know if monitoring is done the same. Assume it is essentially the same except they probably monitor 240 on single phase systems. Then the size of load could possible indicate to them electric heat, or air conditioning.
If the power company monitors power individually on the two phases, then they could identify 240 V loads, and only collect those large loads by seeing the same load change on both phases.
From the main meter point it is very difficult to identify what loads turn on when and off when. It takes a substantial amount of computing power and memory, and resolution finer than 1 second to identify individual loads with any dependability.
Old data from my DTE meter. This type of data not available anymore. http://beta-a2.com/energy_c.html
TED 1000 and 5000 data format. http://beta-a2.com/engry_b.html
Repeat of TED data from my home. http://beta-a2.com/engry_b.html
Plot P29 is from a TED 1000 with a single load of one freezer. Put several gallons of water in the freezer and there is a big change in the on time until the water cools. Plot P27 is various different loads. Try to reliably pick out individual loads. http://beta-a2.com/EE-photos.html
I have not played with TED much lately. So no new data.
.
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
I'm feeling a tad 'old school' reading replies , but thx to all.....~RJ~
drktmplr12
Senior Member
- Location
- South Florida
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190827-1250 EDT
drktmplr12:
Yes. Haven't you ever done that? You are listed as an engineer.
Most scopes have their common connected to the power cord EGC. So you can probably put channel A probe on phase A, and probe B on phase B, ignoring their commons (a good idea to avoid unwanted ground current in the probe leads). Sync on line which is derived from the scope power input, or sync from either channel A or B.
With both channels non-inverting you will see two sine waves displayed. One is an inversion of the other. Thus, a phase difference of 180 degrees.
What the TED system does is sum the two current transformers, but one is inverted by proper orientation of the current transformers. Actually the inverting is done at the output of the current transformers (wiring connection). In the 1000 system voltage is only obtained from one phase and neutral, and this same voltage provides power to the monitoring module. Thus, in the power calculation proper scaling is applied. The assumption is made that both phase voltages are equal, relatively good in most cases.
.
drktmplr12:
Yes. Haven't you ever done that? You are listed as an engineer.
Most scopes have their common connected to the power cord EGC. So you can probably put channel A probe on phase A, and probe B on phase B, ignoring their commons (a good idea to avoid unwanted ground current in the probe leads). Sync on line which is derived from the scope power input, or sync from either channel A or B.
With both channels non-inverting you will see two sine waves displayed. One is an inversion of the other. Thus, a phase difference of 180 degrees.
What the TED system does is sum the two current transformers, but one is inverted by proper orientation of the current transformers. Actually the inverting is done at the output of the current transformers (wiring connection). In the 1000 system voltage is only obtained from one phase and neutral, and this same voltage provides power to the monitoring module. Thus, in the power calculation proper scaling is applied. The assumption is made that both phase voltages are equal, relatively good in most cases.
.
drktmplr12
Senior Member
- Location
- South Florida
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
gar
Senior Member
- Location
- Ann Arbor, Michigan
- Occupation
- EE
190827-1451 EDT
If I have two different signals, I am quite happy to call the two different signals different phases even though they be of identical frequency, waveshape, phase angle and amplitude.
There are devices called resolvers that have two outputs. These can be described as two phase devices. Their outputs are of identical frequency, waveforms close to each other, and approximately the same amplitude. However, the phase angle of one output relative to the other can be anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees depending the resolver input shaft angle. Should these be a two phase device at only some specific angle, not reasonable?
A center tapped transformer is clearly two different phases. Because of this I can make a full wave rectifier with two diodes. If my source is a two wire single phase source, then to get full wave rectification requires 4 diodes.
.
If I have two different signals, I am quite happy to call the two different signals different phases even though they be of identical frequency, waveshape, phase angle and amplitude.
There are devices called resolvers that have two outputs. These can be described as two phase devices. Their outputs are of identical frequency, waveforms close to each other, and approximately the same amplitude. However, the phase angle of one output relative to the other can be anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees depending the resolver input shaft angle. Should these be a two phase device at only some specific angle, not reasonable?
A center tapped transformer is clearly two different phases. Because of this I can make a full wave rectifier with two diodes. If my source is a two wire single phase source, then to get full wave rectification requires 4 diodes.
.
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