Do we have a bathroom here?

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al

al

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We have an exiting dwelling with a shower and a laundry sink in the same room. The service panel is in this room. Do we have a bathroom here?
 
Only if the laundry sink qualifies as a basin. My guess is that it does. Here's the Article 100 definition:

Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.
 
Article 100:
Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

I guess the real question is; Is the laundry tub considered a "basin"?

I suppose I would at least assume that for the intent of 240.24(e) and 230.70(a)(2) that what you are describing would meet the definition of a bathroom.

Pete
 
I'm guessing that you're trying to say that you have a shower in the laundry room and the inspector is saying you have laundry hookups in the bathroom.

I would agree that it's a bathroom. I also might check to see if the shower is permited or if the laundry sink was.
 
I agree with what the others have said. It seems to me (and I may be off base here) that of the various fixtures that are/can be in a bathroom, it is the shower that would cause problems for the panel because of the moisture created.

An off topic question, but I am curious, is there a gas dryer in this laundry room/bathroom, or at least a gas outlet for one? Fuel burning appliances are also prohibited in a bathroom by the IRC and the International Fuel Gas Code. It may be that the shower is what is out of place :)
 
What card is the inspector trying to play? Is the issue having overcurrent devices in a bathroom? If so, I don?t think that rule is very old. It goes back at least to 1996, based on the books on my shelf. But if the house is older than that rule, then you have an existing condition that was allowable at the time of construction, and the inspector cannot force you to change it now.

As to whether this is a bathroom, my answer is no. The NEC defines bathroom using the word ?basin,? but it does not define ?basin.? My desk dictionary defines ?basin? as ?A SHALLOW (my emphasis), usually round container or pan, used chiefly to hold water or other liquid, especially for washing.? The common bathroom sinks would meet that definition. But a laundry tub is not shallow, and it is not chiefly used for holding water. Nor is it intended for washing, at least in most homes. A laundry tub is chiefly used to as the place to dump water from the washing machine, and the washing takes place in the machine (not the tub).

Thus, IMHO, since the laundry tub is not a basin, this room is not a bathroom.
 
eprice said:
it is the shower that would cause problems for the panel because of the moisture created.
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The panel would not be allowed in a half bath, sink and toilet if it were in a residential dwelling. The shower itself has nothing to do with it.
 
I believe that the intended use of the room speaks for itself. Is there a washing machine in the room? If not, I believe that the shower being there would define an intended use of a 'bathroom' with a cheap sink that happens to be deep.

Unless, of course, you wash your clothes while wearing them in the shower, then I guess you COULD try to reason your way through that one.

Get the panel out of there.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The panel would not be allowed in a half bath, sink and toilet if it were in a residential dwelling. The shower itself has nothing to do with it.
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I was speaking specifically about the scenario described in the OP. In that case, it appears that it is the shower which raises the question of whether or not the room is a bathroom. The laundry sink alone would not constitute a bathroom. And, yes, you are correct, a panel would not be allowed in a half bath, but I was making the point that the shower which is present in the scenario described by the OP, seems IMO to be the bathroom fixture that has the most potential to cause a problem for the panel. I can't see, for example, what problems a toilet in the same room would cause in conjuction with a panel.
 
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earshavewalls said:
I believe that the intended use of the room speaks for itself. Is there a washing machine in the room? If not, I believe that the shower being there would define an intended use of a 'bathroom' with a cheap sink that happens to be deep.
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This was my thought. What else in the room would define it as a laundry other than the sink (washer hook-ups, etc.)? If none, than the shower and "basin" would define the room. As said earlier, if these are pre-existing conditions, than the inspector should not be able to arbitrarily make you move a panel, but he probably can prevent one.
 
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earshavewalls said:
Get the panel out of there.
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Not so fast! We can't put a panel in a bathroom today, but does anyone know when that rule came into effect? As I said earlier, it was there as far back as 1996, but I have no older code books available. If the installation predated the rule, then you can't use the rule to force the panel to be moved.

A different question is whether or not there is a real and present hazard. To address that question requires us to know a number of things that we do not know. For example, how big is the room, and how close are the panel, the shower, and the tub to each other? Also, what is the NEMA rating of the panel? And again, is the shower even available for use (i.e., is it plumbed with hot water and a drain, for if not there will be no risk of moisture in the air)?

It should be noted that the OP has not told us why the question is being asked. What is the Inspector trying to get you to do, and what code article is the Inspector using as the basis?
 
Whoops, I just re-read the OP and there is no mention of inspector or inspections. Are you wanting to know for your own knowledge, or is there an inspection issue. IMO, it is a bathroom, but that is not always worth the web it is posted on. :grin:
 
Charlie , I don't remember exactly when the panel in the bathroom came into play but my recollection goes back to at least 1980. I could be mistaken but I seem to remember that was the case back then.
 
Thanks for the replies. The issue came about because of a house remodel. The panel was installed 25 years ago or so and we either need to cange it to a 40 space or add a sub panel, thus overcurrent devices in bathroom issue. I agree with Charlie's point that the laundry sink is not a basin, therfore no bathroom. Al
 
Thats Not A Bathroom

Thats Not A Bathroom

Article 100 Definitions Bathroom.An area including a basin ,thats all you have read into the question ,a Washtub is not a Basin .
 
earshavewalls said:
I believe that the intended use of the room speaks for itself. Is there a washing machine in the room? If not, I believe that the shower being there would define an intended use of a 'bathroom' with a cheap sink that happens to be deep.

Unless, of course, you wash your clothes while wearing them in the shower, then I guess you COULD try to reason your way through that one.

Get the panel out of there.
Click to expand...

what difference does it make if there is a washing machine in the room?

what if there once was a washing machine and it was removed? how does that change anything?

a wash tub is not a basin by any reasonable interpretation of the english language.
 
charlie b said:
As to whether this is a bathroom, my answer is no. The NEC defines bathroom using the word ?basin,? but it does not define ?basin.? My desk dictionary defines ?basin? as ?A SHALLOW (my emphasis), usually round container or pan, used chiefly to hold water or other liquid, especially for washing.? The common bathroom sinks would meet that definition. But a laundry tub is not shallow, and it is not chiefly used for holding water.
Click to expand...

A little further help from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Basin (n):
1. a. A circular vessel of greater width than depth, with sloping or curving sides, used for holding water and other liquids, especially for washing purposes.

Sink (n):
c. A basin or receptacle made of stone, metal, or other material, and having a pipe attached for the escape of water to a drain, etc.; esp. such a basin fitted in a kitchen or scullery, and having a supply of water connected with it

For whatever it's worth,
 
The original poster did not say it was a wash tub. He said that it was a laundry sink.

Out here nobody puts in those big old deep free standing sinks like my grandmother used to have. They usually use the same type that are installed in bathrooms.

I like the walks like a duck and talks like a duck compairison. We all know that the room is used to wash up in prior to coming into the house. Sounds like a bathroom to me.
 
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