Do you agree/disagree ??

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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
This is from another site. No need to mention the poster. I think these two statements are a bit of a stretch but I may be wrong. What I do know is that if I can install a fixture directly to the box without the bar I always will.

If I have unused cable calmps in a box I will always remove them.


Any thoughts?

The strap or the metal piece that comes with a light fixture must be used to install the fixture as outlined in 110.3(B).

If the box is shipped from the manufacturer with the clamps installed then the clamps can not be removed in the field. Even if they are removed they are still counted just as if they were there by the inspector or at least the ones I teach. I use the UL standard that the manufacturer is required to adhere to during the manufacture process for my reference in the class room. This would be UL Standard 514A as outlined in Index A of the NEC.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
I don't see that guy around much anymore.


And, I obviously disagree.

I disagree with most/all forms of extremism.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
(2) Clamp Fill. Where one or more internal cable clamps, whether factory or field supplied, are present in the box, a single volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made based on the largest conductor present in the box. No allowance shall be required for a cable connector with its clamping mechanism outside the box.
Take it out no problem, no count.

I believe I misunderstood the question. We talking about fixture yolks here???
 
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220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
The strap or the metal piece
Like those worthless round "one size fits all" things.

You actually want to use the yoke style with a center nut. That's one of the few halfway smart designs out there.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
This is from another site. No need to mention the poster. I think these two statements are a bit of a stretch but I may be wrong. What I do know is that if I can install a fixture directly to the box without the bar I always will.

If I have unused cable calmps in a box I will always remove them.


Any thoughts?
Yeah, I agree with you but UL does not and UL backs up the statement :roll:

See my other thread.

Installation instructions are considered to be a part of the UL Listing.


Installation instructions
are considered to be a
part of the UL Listing.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Mr. Scott

One example of a UL Standard being incorporated into the code would be the accepted proposal made by Jim Pauley to have the grounded conductor land under one screw to itself.

Future more any requirement found in the UL White Book is part of the listing and labeling of a piece of equipment and must be conformed to.

It is not a matter of a Standard of Practice done in the field daily.

It still wouldn?t matter as there is no way that a 3.5 cu. in. box can be legally used with 14/2 with ground NM cable to mount a light fixture. The cable itself would overfill the box with or without any other item being added to the cu. in. fill.

Unless the canopy of the light fixture is legibly marked with its cubic inch the only way a 3.5 cu. in. box could be used to mount a light fixture is with the use of a plaster ring of some sort when using NM cable.
 

rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
universal fit adapter

universal fit adapter

I've found that a "universal fit" adapter
<<<<<<<<<<<STANDS for>>>>>>>>
There is something in this universe that this thing fits. It is usually something other than what i'm working on.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
Mr. Scott

One example of a UL Standard being incorporated into the code would be the accepted proposal made by Jim Pauley to have the grounded conductor land under one screw to itself.

Future more any requirement found in the UL White Book is part of the listing and labeling of a piece of equipment and must be conformed to.

It is not a matter of a Standard of Practice done in the field daily.

It still wouldn?t matter as there is no way that a 3.5 cu. in. box can be legally used with 14/2 with ground NM cable to mount a light fixture. The cable itself would overfill the box with or without any other item being added to the cu. in. fill.

Unless the canopy of the light fixture is legibly marked with its cubic inch the only way a 3.5 cu. in. box could be used to mount a light fixture is with the use of a plaster ring of some sort when using NM cable.


Just to be clear

are you talking about this exception regarding the fixture (luminair) canopy????

Exception: An equipment grounding conductor or conductors or not over four fixture wires smaller than 14 AWG, or both, shall be permitted to be omitted from the calculations where they enter a box from a domed luminaire or similar canopy and terminate within that box.

I don't see a requirment that the canopy be marked in cu in????
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Just to be clear

are you talking about this exception regarding the fixture (luminair) canopy????

Exception: An equipment grounding conductor or conductors or not over four fixture wires smaller than 14 AWG, or both, shall be permitted to be omitted from the calculations where they enter a box from a domed luminaire or similar canopy and terminate within that box.

I don't see a requirment that the canopy be marked in cu in????


The exception that you have quoted is addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the light fixture and it is not addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the branch circuit which is covered in 314.16(B)(5)

314.16(A) addresses such items such as plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).

The instructions included with the fixture shows how the fixture is intended to be mounted to the box. To just disregard these instructions and mount the fixture in the easiest manner the installer sees fit is a violation of 110.3(B).
This is done all the time by electricians installing lights and is more prevalent in my area than any other violation concerning the installation of lighting fixtures.
 

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA


The exception that you have quoted is addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the light fixture and it is not addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the branch circuit which is covered in 314.16(B)(5)

314.16(A) addresses such items such as plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).

The instructions included with the fixture shows how the fixture is intended to be mounted to the box. To just disregard these instructions and mount the fixture in the easiest manner the installer sees fit is a violation of 110.3(B).
This is done all the time by electricians installing lights and is more prevalent in my area than any other violation concerning the installation of lighting fixtures.
I have never seen a fixture canopy marked with cubic inches and doubt I ever will. I think it would be more realistic to allow us as qualified individuals to judge if there is adequate spece in the canopy without having an actual measurement.

As for the fixture bar "issue" to me it is nonsense. As I said if I can mount the fixture wothout the peice o' junk bar I will.

It's just pathetic that we can't do anything, even as simple as hanging a fixture, without express written consent of a National Testing Lab. Absolutely pathethetic. :roll:
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I have never seen a fixture canopy marked with cubic inches and doubt I ever will. I think it would be more realistic to allow us as qualified individuals to judge if there is adequate spece in the canopy without having an actual measurement.
Can you imagine what a mess there would be if everyone was allowed to decide for their self what is to much in a box.


As for the fixture bar "issue" to me it is nonsense. As I said if I can mount the fixture wothout the peice o' junk bar I will.
Now here is a prime example of why we are not allowed to judge for our self if the box is too full. If we are just going to ignore the instructions on how to mount the fixture.


It's just pathetic that we can't do anything, even as simple as hanging a fixture, without express written consent of a National Testing Lab. Absolutely pathethetic.
But it is how it is so we have no choice but accept it or change our profession.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA


The exception that you have quoted is addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the light fixture and it is not addressing the equipment grounding conductor for the branch circuit which is covered in 314.16(B)(5)

314.16(A) addresses such items such as plaster rings, domed covers, extension rings, and so forth, that are marked with their volume or are made from boxes the dimensions of which are listed in Table 314.16(A).

The instructions included with the fixture shows how the fixture is intended to be mounted to the box. To just disregard these instructions and mount the fixture in the easiest manner the installer sees fit is a violation of 110.3(B).
This is done all the time by electricians installing lights and is more prevalent in my area than any other violation concerning the installation of lighting fixtures.
M ike
If you read thru the exception again ita lso excludes not more than 4 fixture wires over 14ga. it really doesnt care if the canopy is marked in cu in.

but what size 3.5 box are you refering to and waht is the cu in capacity of that enclosure??

Thanks

Charlie
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
But it is how it is so we have no choice but accept it or change our profession
Wanna bet?

I don't accept things on a daily basis. I don't do what I'm told just because. If I feel that something is stupid, I avoid doing it. I wouldn't fit in on a government job :roll:
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
M ike
If you read thru the exception again ita lso excludes not more than 4 fixture wires over 14ga. it really doesnt care if the canopy is marked in cu in.

but what size 3.5 box are you refering to and waht is the cu in capacity of that enclosure??

Thanks

Charlie
Clicl here to see the box in question.
If the canopy is not marked with cubit inch volume fill then a 14/2 with ground can not be used to feed a light fixture attached thereto.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
Clicl here to see the box in question.
If the canopy is not marked with cubit inch volume fill then a 14/2 with ground can not be used to feed a light fixture attached thereto.

OK you nare refering to a pan box. I don't see any one installing those in the 3-1/2". I agree the 1/2" dp is tough to make work. I would use this http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/raco/RACO_datasheet.asp?PN=8293&FAM=RacoBoxes

I never said the canopy gave grace for the in the wall wiring see the exception, it addresses additional conductors in the enclosure that originate at the luminair.
 
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A/A Fuel GTX

Senior Member
Location
WI & AZ
As for the fixture bar "issue" to me it is nonsense. As I said if I can mount the fixture wothout the peice o' junk bar I will.
I completely agree. Two 8/32's secure a fixture to a box quite nicely. What advantage would utilizing a bar create when using a 4/0 box? Bars are for for non conforming boxes.
 

Sharpie

Senior Member
Location
PA
OK you nare refering to a pan box. I don't see any one installing those in the 3-1/2". I agree the 1/2" dp is tough to make work. I would use this http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/raco/RACO_datasheet.asp?PN=8293&FAM=RacoBoxes

I never said the canopy gave grace for the in the wall wiring see the exception, it addresses additional conductors in the enclosure that originate at the luminair.
That 4" pancake has worked for me, but there is not enough room for in & out, you can only bring one 14/2 into the box (and that's only if your NM clamp is external).
 
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