Do you agree/disagree ??

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I can and have showed verbiage where the strap counts as a double volume if it supports electrical equipment and by definition a light fixture is a piece of electrical equipment. [/FONT][/COLOR]

No Mike you have not, you have only given us your interpretation no more.

I have shown you that your interpretation would mean every box is overfilled as your interpretation would count every strap and yoke in the world against box fill of every box.


Get real.:roll:
 

M. D.

Senior Member
Mike, I think a great lesson would be for you and your students go through the formal interpretation process ,..you could start with this issue ,.. I'm not kidding I think it would be a great exercise..
 

mivey

Senior Member
And would not returning the clamps then mean that they would be counted? If they are in the volume under consideration.
I will give you that the White Book is worded differently than I thought but it does not change the fact that the push-in connector in the box posted by Scott would still count as one conductor. Why? the clamp is not in the box.
...

The debate turned into whether the strap for the fixture counted as box fills or not.
I posted 314.16(B)(4) and everyone went wild with explanations of what this section was intended to address instead of anyone explaining the section as it is written. Well, an item can only fill something if it is in it. Saying anything else defies reality. This is not a quantum physics puzzle, it is simple physics.

Many have tried to say that the strap must be inside the area of the box and some says that the strap must be holding something that is inside the box but don?t give a code reference to back their statement. Not even one word from a proposal has been posted that would confirm these statements.
It does not say that anything is required to be in the box in 314.16(B)(4) anywhere. It simply says that a strap or yoke that is holding a piece of equipment and a fixture fits the definition of equipment. A strap outside the box does not affect the internal volume of the box (in this universe, anyway). A strap that supports a fixture is counted just like a hickey that supports a fixture. The question is what volume does it affect. If it is outside the box, it fills the remainder of the universe and I think (going out on a limb here) that there is plenty of room.

If the box has all the volume we need, we do not need any extra volume that the canopy provides. Kind of like infinity plus a number. Once you reach infinity (the needed volume), additional volume is of no consequence (i.e. the space is not "where used" per 314.16 (A)). If we need the volume from the canopy (the "where used" space), and the canopy has a hickey or bar supporting a fixture, we must then include it because it is affecting the volume we are using (the box including the "where used" space).

?Common sense? tells us that the strap holding an electrical lighting fixture in place with or without a canopy the strap is in the middle of current carrying conductors. These conductors are producing heat and the metal strap by its nature will conduct and retain this heat. It does not matter if the strap has conductors around it until it gets inside the volume we are concerned with.

If we should go by your theory that the canopy adds cubit inches to the box for conductor fill then the strap would definitely be inside the cubit inch fill of the box thus taking away the argument that the strap is not in the box. No. It is within the cubic inch fill of the box+canopy. It is not in the original box but is within the volume under consideration.

If this pancake box is being used to hang a multi lampholder chandelier then a strap that has a thread tube screwed into it which the fixture wires are passing through would have electrical equipment that is internal to the strap and this piece of equipment would extend inside the box. Now the strap fits the first part of 314.16(B)(4) 314.16(B): "No allowance shall be required for small fittings such as locknuts and bushings."

My questions are simple to answer for the great minds of this forum.
Could someone show me verbiage that states that the strap is required to be on the inside of the box in order to count for conductor fill?
Can someone show me verbiage that states that a piece of electrical equipment such as a light fixture that is supported by a bar is exempted from conductor fill? If the bar is mounted on the face of the box, and the volume beyond the face of the box (is not "where used") then the bar does not occupy the space and can't contribute to fill.

NEC 100.Scope: "It is not intended to include commonly defined general terms". From http://dictionary.reference.com:

fill: to put into a receptacle: to fill sand into a pail
into: to the inside of; in toward: He walked into the room. The train chugged into the station
inside: the inner or internal part; interior: the inside of the house
inner: situated within or farther within; interior: an inner door
interior: being within; inside of anything; internal; inner; further toward a center: the interior rooms of a house.
within: in or into the interior or inner part; inside.


I can and have showed verbiage where the strap counts as a double volume if it supports electrical equipment and by definition a light fixture is a piece of electrical equipment. If it is in the "where used" space, then I think it would be counted as one volume allowance under 314.16 (B)(3). It is not containing anything within the space.

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contain :
Contain: to hold or include within its volume or area: This glass contains water. This paddock contains our best horses.
Recap: An item can only fill something if it is in it. A fixture bar does not always hold the fixture within the box volume but supports the fixture located outside the box volume. I can see one volume allowance for a porch light and pancake box where the canopy space is used in the volume calculation. To get to two volumes allowances, the light would have to be contained (be held within the volume) in the box volume.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
No Mike you have not, you have only given us your interpretation no more. I have shown you that your interpretation would mean every box is overfilled as your interpretation would count every strap and yoke in the world against box fill of every box.
Get real.


Then allow me to quote the section in question.

(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.

It clearly makes the statement, ?or equipment supported by that yoke or strap?. A light fixture would be supported by the strap would it not?
In the case of a multiple lamp chandelier the threaded tube which the conductors pass through would most certainly be inside the box would they not?

This section does not have any verbiage that would lead anyone to believe that the strap that is supporting the light fixture has to be inside the box in order to count as a deduction of conductor fill. It is clear that the strap has to in some way interact with the box in question and not every strap in the world counts. Personally I think you hit a foul ball with that swing.
This section has not one word that states that the device or the equipment supported by this strap or even the strap itself is required to be inside the box in order to count and I have challenged anyone to quote the verbiage that says it must be inside the box in order to be counted. No one has pointed out this part as yet.

I am trying as hard as I can to show that I am not interpreting anything but instead reading what is printed. I have not added one word nor have I taken one word away. I have not said that this is what they meant or even that this is the intent. It says what it says nothing more and nothing less.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I am trying as hard as I can to show that I am not interpreting anything but instead reading what is printed.

You may be trying but your not succeeding, I can not sum it up any better than mivey did.

I have not added one word nor have I taken one word away.

Actually it has been shown in this thread already that you have used words not contained in the code sections.

This section does not have any verbiage that would lead anyone to believe that the strap that is supporting the light fixture has to be inside the box in order to count as a deduction of conductor fill. It is clear that the strap has to in some way interact with the box in question and not every strap in the world counts.

And you have not shown any 'verbiage' that items not inside a box reduce the volume in the box ....... in reality or in the NEC world.

Personally I think you hit a foul ball with that swing.

Thats what makes it great country, people can think many things.


It says what it says nothing more and nothing less.

I agree, it also does not say what your interpreting it to say.
 
(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment

I also believe that this sentence is clearly talking about straps containing devices.... How do you separate this clear subject qualifier? You can't apply the rest of the sentence to ANYTHING accept "each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment"........



 

mivey

Senior Member
It clearly makes the statement, ?or equipment supported by that yoke or strap?.
No it does not say what you are trying to make it say. That phrase does not stand alone and is referring back to the opening phrase. When the code section is referencing "that yoke", the yoke it is referring to is the one defined at the beginning: "each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment"
In the case of a multiple lamp chandelier the threaded tube which the conductors pass through would most certainly be inside the box would they not?
If it is in the box volume, it would get one allowance. The chandelier would be pretty much useless if it were contained in the box.
This section does not have any verbiage that would lead anyone to believe that the strap that is supporting the light fixture has to be inside the box in order to count as a deduction of conductor fill. It is clear that the strap has to in some way interact with the box in question and not every strap in the world counts
But it has to be within the box volume. There is nothing that says the canopy volume must be included in the box volume. The box alone can have sufficient volume in which case you do not have to use the canopy volume when making the calcs.
This section has not one word that states that the device or the equipment supported by this strap or even the strap itself is required to be inside the box in order to count and I have challenged anyone to quote the verbiage that says it must be inside the box in order to be counted
I did that but you turned a blind eye. You are too fixated on your agenda to listen.
I am trying as hard as I can to show that I am not interpreting anything but instead reading what is printed. I have not added one word nor have I taken one word away. I have not said that this is what they meant or even that this is the intent. It says what it says nothing more and nothing less.
Then quit making your own personal interpretations. Clear your mind and listen to what we are trying to tell you (no, it's not kool-aid :grin:).

Believe me when I tell you I understand what you are saying and I think you are sincere. I am just saying you are sincerely wrong.
 

mivey

Senior Member
I also believe that this sentence is clearly talking about straps containing devices.... How do you separate this clear subject qualifier? You can't apply the rest of the sentence to ANYTHING accept "each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment"........
And your definition of contain would be...
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
Your stubborn and crazy. Ahhh I do feel better. :D

I will not count a fixture bar towards box fill
I will not use the fixture bar if not needed
I will not hesitate to remove clamps from a box if not needed
I will not count clamps that have been removed from a box toards fill
I will not count the black button connector towards box fill
I will not worry about using a panckake box in certain cases
I will not loose any sleep over the items I just mentioned

I do not need written instructions to follw every little step of an electrical installation. I have enough knowledge, experience and common sense to know the difference between a safe installation or a hazardous one.

If you ask me, which you didn't, if there were more people like me, the trade wouldn't need to be dumbed down to the point where we are now. Where is that you ask? We are at a point where a perfectly safe installation can be failed by an inspector for no other reason than "you mounted that fixture without the fixture bar, that's a lisitng violation!!!" But inspector, what is the actual problem or hazard? Well there isn't really one but this piece of paper tells me it has to be this way so I have to follow the paper. " :roll:

I think I'm like you. I feel better now, too. :cool:
I just noticed the more recent additions to this thread and checked on it. Wow!!!!!!:grin:

As Larry said, philosophical topics or differences of interpretation can go oooonnnnnnnnnn! Anyway, I don't teach inspectors, but I've taught many apprentices, and I learned 'em what you said above.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
I agree, it also does not say what your interpreting it to say.

So now you have a chance to explain just what is written in the book.

(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.
 
So now you have a chance to explain just what is written in the book.

(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.

The goal here being to keep posting the same quote out of the NEC until the OVERWHELMING majority who now disagree with you suddenly wake up and see the light?
 

mivey

Senior Member
The goal here being to keep posting the same quote out of the NEC until the OVERWHELMING majority who now disagree with you suddenly wake up and see the light?
I agree. There are some flaws in his logic.

I have seen multiple "contain" uses. One saying the yoke "contains" the device (the device is held within the yoke). One saying the yoke "contains" the device within the box. While both seem to work, I lean to the second.

Mike seems to be saying "contain" is equivalent to "support". I don't see how the majority is going to overcome this fundamental flaw in Mike's logic.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
So now you have a chance to explain just what is written in the book.

(4) Device or Equipment Fill. For each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment, a double volume allowance in accordance with Table 314.16(B) shall be made for each yoke or strap based on the largest conductor connected to a device(s) or equipment supported by that yoke or strap. A device or utilization equipment wider than a single 50 mm (2 in.) device box as described in Table 314.16(A) shall have double volume allowances provided for each gang required for mounting.


That phrase does not stand alone and is referring back to the opening phrase. When the code section is referencing "that yoke", the yoke it is referring to is the one defined at the beginning: "each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment"

I see it the same way as mivey.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
No it does not say what you are trying to make it say. That phrase does not stand alone and is referring back to the opening phrase. When the code section is referencing "that yoke", the yoke it is referring to is the one defined at the beginning: "each yoke or strap containing one or more devices or equipment"
I see it the same way as mivey.


So if I understand what you are saying you are saying that either the light fixture is neither a piece of equipment or it is not supported by that yoke.
Or it might be that you are saying that the device or equipment must be contained within the strap instead of contained by the strap such as a fence contains the cattle in the pasture.
Help me out here just a little so I might get a better understanding of just what your comment is meaning.
 

mivey

Senior Member
So if I understand what you are saying you are saying that either the light fixture is neither a piece of equipment or it is not supported by that yoke.It is supported, but it might not be contained by the yoke.
Or it might be that you are saying that the device or equipment must be contained within the strap instead of contained by the strap such as a fence contains the cattle in the pasture.
Help me out here just a little so I might get a better understanding of just what your comment is meaning.
Consider a box that has the required volume.

To me, if the yoke holds a device that is within the confines of the box, then you take a double allowance. It is possible to have a yoke that holds a device that is not contained within the confines of the box and you would not take an allowance. The yoke might look like this:
..........___........
.........|...|.device
.........|___|....
..../.............\....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|

If you are also using the volume outside the box, then you would take a double allowance.

To take an allowance, the device would have to be inside the box, like this:

..........___.device
.........|...|.........yoke
|........|___|........|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|

Now for a canopy with screws going through to support a device where the canopy volume is used:
...._______________
...|...............|.
...|_|___________|_|.device
..___|___________|__
./...|...........|..\canopy
/....|screw......|...\
.....|...........|....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|
The yoke/strap gets a single volume support allowance. If the canopy volume is not used, the yoke/strap does not get an allowance.

Finally, if the device is outside the box, but inside a canopy where the volume is used, it gets a double allowance, like here:
...________________
../.......___......\canopy
./.......|...|device\
/........|___|.......\
..../.............\....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Consider a box that has the required volume.

To me, if the yoke holds a device that is within the confines of the box, then you take a double allowance. It is possible to have a yoke that holds a device that is not contained within the confines of the box and you would not take an allowance. The yoke might look like this:
..........___........
.........|...|.device
.........|___|....
..../.............\....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|

If you are also using the volume outside the box, then you would take a double allowance.

To take an allowance, the device would have to be inside the box, like this:

..........___.device
.........|...|.........yoke
|........|___|........|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|

Now for a canopy with screws going through to support a device where the canopy volume is used:
...._______________
...|...............|.
...|_|___________|_|.device
..___|___________|__
./...|...........|..\canopy
/....|screw......|...\
.....|...........|....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|
The yoke/strap gets a single volume support allowance. If the canopy volume is not used, the yoke/strap does not get an allowance.

Finally, if the device is outside the box, but inside a canopy where the volume is used, it gets a double allowance, like here:
...________________
../.......___......\canopy
./.......|...|device\
/........|___|.......\
..../.............\....yoke
|.....................|
|.....................|
|.........BOX.........|
|.....................|
|---------------------|

This is what I would call a real good explanation of what someone thinks the section means but is not substantiated by one word from the NEC.
Nowhere in section 4 does it say that anything is required to be in the box in order to be counted. This train of thought that it must be inside the box is not substantiated by one word found in the NEC that anyone has shown to me.
Please show me where the requirement is found that it must be inside the box in order to be counted.
 

mivey

Senior Member
This is what I would call a real good explanation of what someone thinks the section means but is not substantiated by one word from the NEC.
Nowhere in section 4 does it say that anything is required to be in the box in order to be counted. This train of thought that it must be inside the box is not substantiated by one word found in the NEC that anyone has shown to me.
Please show me where the requirement is found that it must be inside the box in order to be counted.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1108434&postcount=104
 
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