Documenting Removal of Knob n Tube wiring

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DRC72530

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Documenting Removal of Knob n Tube Wiring,

I just completed a project on a 100+ year old 2 family home just North of Boston, we removed the balance of the existing Knob n Tube wiring.
to be more accurate, we de-energized the existing KNT wiring, we cut it back as far as practical where exposed and abandoned it where it is still behind plaster walls and ceilings, We ran new romex circuits to the receptacles, switches and lights. We did this all with out cutting into any plaster walls or ceilings
So there is still KNT behind the walls and ceilings, this house being so old, Im not 100% sure what other contractors have done,
I am comfortable that NO KNT wiring is being energized from the 2 existing panels.

The home owner is looking for some documentation from me that all the Knob n Tube wiring has been de-energized,
they would like to get the exterior walls and ceilings insulated, and from what we understand, the insulation contractor is looking for some documentation
Im sure they would also like to inform the insurance company that the KNT wiring has been de-enrgized.

Have any of you guys ever documented this type of project? I have never done this type of documentation and just looking for some advise

This is my very first post, I know MH has the best followers out there,
thanks in advance
David
 
I have never had to document a job like this but it should be simple enough.

Have ever who permitted the job and actually worked on it or supervised it sign a letter to the effect that all knob and tube was de-energized and replaced with Romex. Then you should have an inspection that was passed as further proof (documentation).
 
"To whom it may concern:

We de-energized the existing KNT wiring, we cut it back as far as practical where exposed and abandoned it where it is still behind plaster walls and ceilings, We ran new romex circuits to the receptacles, switches and lights. We did this all with out cutting into any plaster walls or ceilings.
So there is still KNT behind the walls and ceilings, this house being so old, Im not 100% sure what other contractors have done, I am comfortable that NO KNT wiring is being energized from the 2 existing panels.

Signed, David"
 
LarryFine said:
"To whom it may concern:

We de-energized the existing KNT wiring, we cut it back as far as practical where exposed and abandoned it where it is still behind plaster walls and ceilings, We ran new romex circuits to the receptacles, switches and lights. We did this all with out cutting into any plaster walls or ceilings.
So there is still KNT behind the walls and ceilings, this house being so old, Im not 100% sure what other contractors have done, I am comfortable that NO KNT wiring is being energized from the 2 existing panels.

Signed, David"
Click to expand...

I don't think you can say that with any confidence. Someone might have spliced into the KNT on both ends with something else. I think whatever opinion is expressed in writing ought to include the possibility that something was missed. Without chopping down the walls there is no way to know if there is any energized KNT wiring left. There might not be any, but you just can't tell.
 
Borescope photos and box photos as an extra if they never told you it needed to be documented. Even then if every opening was replaced with new wire draw an as built. If you trust your men sign off as 100%.
 
So let me get this straight. You just replaced what you thought was supplied by the old K&T and now the owner want's a statement that all K&T was eliminated? Other than you being the last one to touch it, a statement like that makes you liable if something should happen and that's probably what they are looking for.

As somebody mentioned, there is no way of knowing if some hack spliced some Romex to a K&T run and when you remove a device you see the Romex and call it good. You even said it yourself:

So there is still KNT behind the walls and ceilings, this house being so old, Im not 100% sure what other contractors have done...
Click to expand...

If it were me I would have rewired EVERYTHING that was existing. If you are going to rewire REWIRE!

-Hal
 
I've done this very thing, basically the insulation companies who are being subsidized by National Grid and other utilities won't insulate until you sign your life away and that's pretty much what the contract says. It requires a thorough investigation.

I had to do one recently where the house was built in 1987 so obviously no K&T but they wanted certification that there were no non-IC cans so they wouldn't be covered with blown-in. It required me taking down all the trims and checking, and sure enough I found one that was non-IC, which I clearly identified on the National Grid contract. This gave the green light for the insulators to do their work.
 
I've an occupied 9 unit K&T nightmare in town, which the state condemned 4-5 years ago , weeding it out bit by bit

so yes, i document

~RJ~
 
hbiss said:
If it were me I would have rewired EVERYTHING that was existing. If you are going to rewire REWIRE!

-Hal
Click to expand...

Here if you contract and permit a "rewire" then you are required to replace all wiring and bring it up to today's code. Most of those old houses don't have half the receptacles that would be required nor many of the required circuits ( bath, laundry, small appliance ). New hard wired smoke detectors would also be required.

But you are right and you can only provide documentation for work that you have performed.
 
petersonra said:
I don't think you can say that with any confidence. Someone might have spliced into the KNT on both ends with something else. I think whatever opinion is expressed in writing ought to include the possibility that something was missed. Without chopping down the walls there is no way to know if there is any energized KNT wiring left. There might not be any, but you just can't tell.
Click to expand...
Unless you have disconnected all existing wiring and only reconnected items that you either added or have somehow verified what was connected to them.
 
The problem with K&T verification isn't so much the original K&T, it's all the methods added on over the years.

~RJ~
 
DRC72530 said:
I just completed a project on a 100+ year old 2 family home just North of Boston, we removed the balance of the existing Knob n Tube wiring. to be more accurate, we de-energized the existing KNT wiring, we cut it back as far as practical where exposed and abandoned it where it is still behind plaster walls and ceilings, We ran new romex circuits to the receptacles, switches and lights. We did this all with out cutting into any plaster walls or ceilings So there is still KNT behind the walls and ceilings, this house being so old, Im not 100% sure what other contractors have done, I am comfortable that NO KNT wiring is being energized from the 2 existing panels.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the Forum, David.

I agree with Larry about your approach to offering the owner documentation is in the words you offer to us.

I draw your attention to the red highlighted words. I would suggest fleshing this out a bit. Something that speaks to the extent of the new replacement wiring you installed. Personally, I'd be inclined to state something like, "We found xxx number of electrical receptacle outlets, switches and lighting outlets existing within the 2 family dwelling. We installed new wiring to xxx number of electrical receptacle outlets, switches and lighting outlets."
 
As an aside here, as many of you probably know, the insurance industry is looking to oust the world of K&T, along with any policy holders living under a roof with it.

Beware of the 'can you get the K&T out of my basement' sorts

they may not be telling you the whole story

~RJ~
 
As they are working with the banks too.
Would love to know how many fires are due to knt, remember when in doubt it was an electrical fire.
This week we had a ~city block burn, it was fought for 3 days, today the cause was from "improper disposal of smoking material "; how the heck do you come up with that?
 
My opinion has always been that K&T wiring that hasn't been overloaded or overheated is as safe as NM.
 
LarryFine said:
My opinion has always been that K&T wiring that hasn't been overloaded or overheated is as safe as NM.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It was overbuilt, and installed professionally during a period when people feared fires and most wouldn't dare attempt a DIY job. In old house demo's and reno's I've worked the K&T was almost always in amazingly good condition and fully capable of functioning.
 
Craigv said:
Agreed. It was overbuilt, and installed professionally during a period when people feared fires and most wouldn't dare attempt a DIY job. In old house demo's and reno's I've worked the K&T was almost always in amazingly good condition and fully capable of functioning.
Click to expand...

Agreed X 2. :thumbsup:
 
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