does 210.52(a)(1) apply

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Ponchik

Ponchik

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Here is a kitchen island with the back side missing receptacle. I say 210.52(a)(1) applies. what are your comments?

I have not seen the job, just the picture and I am assuming there is no receptacle under the overhang that will count towards the 210.52(a)(1).

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What do yo mean by a back side missing receptacle? Are you referring to the visible part in the photo? An island not divided into separate spaces only requires one receptacle. Does one exist?
 
does the counter fit the description of
(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3). See related ROP
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line of any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet. See related ROP ROC

This rule provides for receptacle outlets to be installed so that an appliance or lamp with a flexible cord attached may be placed anywhere in the room near a wall and be within 6 ft of a receptacle, minimizing the need for occupants to use extension cords. Although not an enforceable requirement, receptacles may be placed equal distances apart where there is no specific room layout for the general use of electrical equipment. Section 210.52(A)(1) does not prohibit a receptacle layout designed for intended utilization equipment or practical room use. For example, receptacles in a living room, family room, or den that are intended to serve home entertainment equipment or home office equipment may be placed in corners, may be grouped, or may be placed in a convenient location. Receptacles that are intended for window-type holiday lighting may be placed under windows. Even if more receptacles than the minimum required are installed in a room, no point in any wall space is permitted to be more than 6 ft from a receptacle.

2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:


(1)
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Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets

(3)
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The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

 
I have not seen the project, however, I am assuming the island has at least one receptacle that satisfies 210.52(c)(2).

My question is about (the visible side, the finished wood side) of the island. Does that count as a wall space? does 210.52(a)(1) & (a)(2) apply? I think it does.
 
there are no outlets on the other side between the counter top and the eating top? I was under the understanding that outlets are prohibited under the counters overhang where the stools will be located at which point we would place an outlet at either end of the island.
 
edward said:
I have not seen the project, however, I am assuming the island has at least one receptacle that satisfies 210.52(c)(2).

My question is about (the visible side, the finished wood side) of the island. Does that count as a wall space? does 210.52(a)(1) & (a)(2) apply? I think it does.
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The "wall" of the side of the island does not count as a room wall under 210.52(A)(1) and (A)(2), and even if it did its whole length would, IMHO be interrupted by a fixed cabinet, and so not count.
So that leaves only (C)(2) which others have discussed.

Now if the island had been instead just a partial divider wall between kitchen and the adjacent room, there would be more agreement that it would be a wall under (A). And it would then need outlets on both sides. :)

However, that is just logic, and the wording of (A)(2)(3) seems to imply that the face of the island may have to be counted if it is a "free standing bar type countertop" but not if it is instead a kitchen countertop with its separate rules. The fact that the far side of the island is in the kitchen and is not set up for bar use in a non-kitchen room seems to be relevant. It may come down to whether the structure is an island, surrounded by kitchen or a divider between two rooms. From the photo it seems more like the latter, but we need to see more.
 
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IMO it's just a kitchen island and nothing more. I don't see this as dividing anything. :)
 
infinity said:
IMO it's just a kitchen island and nothing more. I don't see this as dividing anything. :)
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If it?s a kitchen island then the floor space on both sides would be in the kitchen. The architect would have called out the space on the drawings. So I guess it up to the design drawings if this counter divides anything or not.
 
Mike cited the correct section in post #3. The counter is wall space for the purpose of locating receptacles.
 
Since some of you do not believe this divides the room, please give me an example of a free standing bar type counter or railing that does -- IMO the kitchen is separated from the dining room/familyroom/livingroom on the other side of this free standing bar type counter. Maybe the counter has wheels


(3)
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The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings
 
RLyons said:
there are no outlets on the other side between the counter top and the eating top? I was under the understanding that outlets are prohibited under the counters overhang where the stools will be located at which point we would place an outlet at either end of the island.
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There are restrictions for the app requirement. general recepts could be put under the countertop
 
I understand both sides of this debate and refuse to say whether or not code requires more than 1 receptacle here (I think there is definitely at least one required).

Code aside, I will also say that on that long of a island, many owners will wish they had at least a couple outlets at some time if they don't have them.

The "back side" I personally think is pointless to require any receptacles but there is nothing wrong with putting receptacles there if desired though. This would be like requiring receptacles around a dining room table in a way, just what do you expect them to be needed for that can't be served some other way?
 
kwired said:
I personally think is pointless to require any receptacles but there is nothing wrong with putting receptacles there if desired though. This would be like requiring receptacles around a dining room table in a way,

just what do you expect them to be needed for that can't be served some other way?
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If we are talking about personal preference I would use the receptacle on the back side for my laptop computer and I know she loves face book and would do the same.

I like to see the receptacles on the back side this type of counter down lower out of reach from a 30 in. small appliance cord. I also would hate to see receptacles on the back side without small appliance receptacles on the kitchen work area side.
 
I know I'm a rebel: if the homeowner is happy, leave it alone. Obviously, it is debatable whether another receptacle was requirred, so let it be.

I understand why the NEC requires outlets in certain spaces, it makes very good sense. But requiring a home owner that spent $100K on their kitchen to add a receptacle after the fact is, IMHO, rediculous.
 
david said:
If we are talking about personal preference I would use the receptacle on the back side for my laptop computer and I know she loves face book and would do the same.
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I do have a counter somewhat similar to the one in the OP - but not nearly as long. The portable computer does get plugged in there - but to receptacles serving the kitchen side. There are none on the "back side" but if there were I wouldn't use them - why bend over to plug the computer in when the others are much easier to reach.
 
because she would keep unplugging my computer to plug in her toaster or coffee pot.

Besides I hate reaching over the counter to try and find the rec. for the adding machine.

These breakfast counters are a nice place to be doing some paper work while she is in the kitchen doing her thing, I am close by that way to cut the onions for her and I like watching her do her thing in the kitchen.
 
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