Does installing electrical conduits in a concrete floor slab change fire rating?

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d-decherd

Member
Location
Illinois
Our local inspector has asked us to determine if installing conduits in the concrete floor slab changes the fire rating of the floor?
3/4" conduit, concrete rated, fire stopped at both ends as per 300.21.

Where can I look to provide an answer to the inspector?

Thanks,
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
The floor could be an upper one (so it is the lowers ceiling)

I don't think he's talking about a penetration but poured in the slab

on pan or steel deck?
how thick is the concrete?
pvc or steel conduit?
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Our local inspector has asked us to determine if installing conduits in the concrete floor slab changes the fire rating of the floor?
3/4" conduit, concrete rated, fire stopped at both ends as per 300.21.

Where can I look to provide an answer to the inspector?

Thanks,

Coordinate with the structural engineer or the fire protection engineer if there's one on the job.

What they're going to do is look at how much concrete cover there is and what type of concrete it is.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I would think that if the conduit in the concrete doesn't affect the structural integrity of the concrete then it would not affect the fire rating.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
I would think that if the conduit in the concrete doesn't affect the structural integrity of the concrete then it would not affect the fire rating.


They are two separate issues.
OP has also not said how much EMT is in the deck. Does he have 50 pipes bundled in a beam?

If he wants to provide the details I'll solve the puzzle. But it's not my job. Whatever designer did that job really should look at it. He needs to do an RFI to that engineer.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
They are two separate issues.
OP has also not said how much EMT is in the deck. Does he have 50 pipes bundled in a beam?

If he wants to provide the details I'll solve the puzzle. But it's not my job. Whatever designer did that job really should look at it. He needs to do an RFI to that engineer.

Sounds like 50 pipes in a beam wouldn't pass the structural requirements which was my point, if it's structurally OK then the fire rating shouldn't be an issue.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The floor could be an upper one (so it is the lowers ceiling)

I don't think he's talking about a penetration but poured in the slab

on pan or steel deck?
how thick is the concrete?
pvc or steel conduit?
The fact he mentioned fire stopped at each end suggests it may be a drilled through penetration. No need to firestop a poured in installation.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
The fact he mentioned fire stopped at each end suggests it may be a drilled through penetration. No need to firestop a poured in installation.
He said 'in the slab', not 'through the slab' confusing
an inspector should know penetrations are common
 

d-decherd

Member
Location
Illinois
OP Original Poster? The conduit will lay flat in the concrete slab

OP Original Poster? The conduit will lay flat in the concrete slab

Additional information to further confuse the situation.
1. I have not been able to locate anything about this in the NEC. Penetrating a slab, yes, fire stopping a penetration, yes. Entering the slab at one end, exiting the slab at the other end ~60 feet distance, nothing.
2. 2000 IFC had 72 pages of info on electrical and fire ratings. 2009 IFC has almost nothing on fire rating.
3. Slab depth is yet to be determined. I see a 2" covering over the steel conduit with concrete fittings but little else.
4. We have done numerous installations with conduits in slabs in multistory buildings with NO questions from the inspectors.
5. This is not a slab on grade with conduits in the ground beneath the concrete installation. The conduits are in the second level, concrete floor of a new addition to a school.
6. I still have not found anything and so far the discussion suggests that there is nothing to find concerning this question.
7. I am looking for anything to assist me in informing the inspector that there is a derating of the fire rating or there is nothing to back up his question.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I have never heard of an inspector questioning the fire rating of conduit installed in a slab. That's bizarre.

I agree and it sounds like question for the concrete guy not the electrician. Maybe he can run a 60' strip of firestop on the underside of the slab directly under the conduit. :slaphead:

Just Kidding. ;)
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Additional information to further confuse the situation.
1. I have not been able to locate anything about this in the NEC. Penetrating a slab, yes, fire stopping a penetration, yes. Entering the slab at one end, exiting the slab at the other end ~60 feet distance, nothing.
2. 2000 IFC had 72 pages of info on electrical and fire ratings. 2009 IFC has almost nothing on fire rating.
3. Slab depth is yet to be determined. I see a 2" covering over the steel conduit with concrete fittings but little else.
4. We have done numerous installations with conduits in slabs in multistory buildings with NO questions from the inspectors.
5. This is not a slab on grade with conduits in the ground beneath the concrete installation. The conduits are in the second level, concrete floor of a new addition to a school.
6. I still have not found anything and so far the discussion suggests that there is nothing to find concerning this question.
7. I am looking for anything to assist me in informing the inspector that there is a derating of the fire rating or there is nothing to back up his question.


Whoever designed that slab needs to answer the inspector's question.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Do the plans call for it in the slab?
is the concrete poured on pans?
is the underside have spray on fireproofing?
can you run it on the first flr clg (under slab) and make penetrations as required?

you need to look in the aci design manual
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Looks like it's allowed
max 3/4" dia cnd
cnd spacing min 6" for mult run
must run in direction of joist (joist is the trough in the pan/deck)
must be run between joists
does not affect fire rating
 
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