Does there need to be an outlet in this small 'foyer' space with no blank wall?

D

dirtynails

Member
Location
NJ
How does the code treat this small space with no 'wall' except the masonry dumbwaiter shaft? Am I required to bang a hole there to place an outlet! Obviously, there will be outlets nearby in the living room, bath and kitchen, and I suppose one could be placed inside the closet.


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In your case, it depends on the floor area of the foyer and the width of that wall space.

According to 210.52(I): Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width. Doorways, door-side windows that extend to the floor, and similar openings shall not be considered wall space.
 
LarryFine said:
In your case, it depends on the floor area of the foyer and the width of that wall space.

According to 210.52(I): Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width. Doorways, door-side windows that extend to the floor, and similar openings shall not be considered wall space.
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Thanks. So my drawing clocks the space at 20 sq ft, so I'm simply off the hook, right?

BTW, is your username from the Stooges? Trivia: his real name was Louis Feinberg, same as my grandad!
 
dirtynails said:
I guess trying to second guess "code think", you could say anyone could later demo out the shelving and cabs and then you have a wall without an outlet.
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The NEC isn't about what may or may not happen in the future. It applies to the situation at the time of installation nothing more. Second guessing will drive you crazy. :)
 
dirtynails said:
Thanks. So my drawing clocks the space at 20 sq ft, so I'm simply off the hook, right?
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Correctamundo.

dirtynails said:
BTW, is your username from the Stooges? Trivia: his real name was Louis Feinberg, same as my grandad!
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No, it's my real name, just coincidence. And the Howards were really Horwitzes.
 
infinity said:
The NEC isn't about what may or may not happen in the future. It applies to the situation at the time of installation nothing more. Second guessing will drive you crazy. :)
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My wife keeps kosher, and those laws have a lot in common with NEC, a lot of 2nd guessing of how people can screw it up! But thankfully with NEC there seems to be a limit...
 
dirtynails said:
I guess trying to second guess "code think", you could say anyone could later demo out the shelving and cabs and then you have a wall without an outlet.
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Then the code is violated by the remover of the 'cabinet' and so would need to be rectified by them.
Otherwise we would need to have all installs meet 'hazardous location' requirements for when the residents start cooking meth.
 
dirtynails said:
How does the code treat this small space with no 'wall' except the masonry dumbwaiter shaft? Am I required to bang a hole there to place an outlet! Obviously, there will be outlets nearby in the living room, bath and kitchen, and I suppose one could be placed inside the closet.


View attachment 2576063
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2023 NEC TX
210. 52 (C) Does that "pantry/cabinets" have a counter top? 12 inches or wider?

210.52 (H) (1) Foyers greater than 60 square feet....about 7.7 x 7.7 = 59.2 sq ft
It does not look bigger than a 7.7 sq ft.
TX+MASTER#4544
 
TX+ MASTER#4544 said:
2023 NEC TX
210. 52 (C) Does that "pantry/cabinets" have a counter top? 12 inches or wider?

210.52 (H) (1) Foyers greater than 60 square feet....about 7.7 x 7.7 = 59.2 sq ft
It does not look bigger than a 7.7 sq ft.
TX+MASTER#4544
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Nope, I was going floor to ceiling. I actually wanted to put the service panel on that wall above a 12" counter and below cabinets, but that's verboten. Gotta put it on the other side of the kitchen, adding 11' to most of the cables. :mad:
 
Frank DuVal said:
Yep, I've known Larry since we were kids curious with electricity.
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I started in the first grade with a foxhole radio from a library book at Bethlehem Elementary.

I remember you experimenting with sending an audio signal through soil in a glass fish tank.

I had thought about asking you if you wanted to see if we could do it from two blocks apart.
 
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We never tried to two block test. I might have needed more than the 1/4 Watt or so amplifier I was using...;)

The foxhole radios worked well in our neighborhood, as WLEE was 7 volts/meter field strength there in their night time pattern.

11 feet way shorter than most kitchen runs I do.... basements common around here, so up, over, up again...
 
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