double tap to subpanel

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nvdolfan

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In a house I am buying we found that they had double tapped the 50A oven circuit breaker, to run a subpanel. My inspector (who is currently on vacation out of the country) said this was a code violation and needs to be corrected. The owners are saying it was done by the local electrical company and is okay. Is this up to code or not?

Also in the subpanel they are double tapping one of the 15Amp circuit breakers which they are also saying the local elecrical company says is also okay.

Thanks for any help.
-Chris
 
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double tap to sub panel

double tap to sub panel

nvdolfan said:
In a house I am buying we found that they had double tapped the 50A oven circuit breaker, to run a subpanel. My inspector (who is currently on vacation out of the country) said this was a code violation and needs to be corrected. The owners are saying it was done by the local electrical company and is okay. Is this up to code or not?

Also in the subpanel they are double tapping one of the 15Amp circuit breakers which they are also saying the local elecrical company says is also okay.

Thanks for any help.
-Chris

Imo both are violations. For one,the terminals on the breakers are not listed for more than one conductor.Sorry don't have the code sections in front of me.

I am sure you will get more and better responses, regarding ocp.
 
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Just to make sure I understand your question, I surmise that you have, in your main panel, a 50 amp breaker. One set of wires is connected to that breaker, and serves the oven. A second set of wires is connected to the same breaker, and serves the subpanel. Is that what you mean?

Some manufacturers of panelboards and breakers have tested their equipment with more than one connection under a single lug. Others have not. It is a question of fact as to whether your equipment had been listed by its manufacturer for double-tapping. The NEC will allow it if, and only if, the manufacturer allowed it.

So we can?t tell you if it is OK or not, without knowing the make and model number of the panels and the breakers.

Whether or not it is allowed by code, it is not a good design practice. I would not want my Thanksgiving dinner preparations interrupted because something on the subpanel overloaded the 50 amp circuit.

What, by the way, do you mean by ?my Inspector?? Did you hire a Home Inspector to assist you with your decision on whether to buy the house or whether to ask for certain repairs as part of your offer? That is generally a good idea. But you need to understand that these people are generally not experts in any of the disciplines related to home construction. They do not have the authority to declare that something violates code or to require the owners to repair anything. They can give you information that can help with your negotiations with the owner. But if it comes down to something being a code violation or not, or something requiring repair or not, you need to turn to someone within the relevant profession (e.g., electrician, plumber, Air Conditioning specialist, roofer, etc.).
 
Well put Charlie. I agree the "double tapping" threw me for a loop, we always called it "double lugging" and see 110.14(A) read the last sentence as Charlie mentioned.
 
thank you for your help!
Sorry for the confusion.

Yes I meant that in my main panel there is a 50amp breaker with 2 sets of wires running from it. One set of wires to the oven, the other to power the subpanel, this is my main concern. In the subpanel one of the breakers has 2 sets of wires going from it, but I am not as concerned about this.

Yes "The inspector" is a home inspector I hired to inspect the house prior to the purchase. We had in our offer that they would fix this problem and they agreed, and now they have come back and said it is not needed because the the local electrical company had done the work and said it is okay.

Thank you for the reference to 110.14(A). I will try to read up on this tonight.

Thanks again.
-Chris
 
nvdolfan said:
We had in our offer that they would fix this problem and they agreed, and now they have come back and said it is not needed because the the local electrical company had done the work and said it is okay.
Now you have me confused again. What type of "local electrical company" are you talking about? Do you mean the utility that provides electrical power and sends you a monthly bill? If so, those companies never, never do electrical installation work inside a house. Do you mean instead that a local electrical contractor did the work (i.e., a company that sends licensed electricians to your house, does installation work, and hands you an invoice)? If so, the fact that such a company did the work does not make it code-compliant.

Ask them for the electrical permit that was used to perform the work. Ask them to show that it was inspected by the local authorities and declared to be acceptable. If they can't prove that some person in authority approved a permit, then any statement they make about it being OK is nonsense.

Did you have money held in escrow at closing, pending completion of this work? If so, you are within your rights to withold release of that money back to the previous owners. If you didn't, then shame on you, and good luck forcing them to fix the problem.

That said, I still do not know if this is a problem. Some manufacturers allow for it, and I don't know if this is one of them.
 
We haven't closed on the house yet. I'm not sure what they meant by "the local electrical company". I was planning on asking for written verification by an electrical inspector that it is okay, but then decided I want it fixed even if it is technically okay, and they signed the contract that they would have it fixed so I am going to try and make them fix it still regardless if the vendor has approved the circuit breaker for being double tapped.
 
In all my years I have never,ever seen a 50 amp 2 pole breaker listed for
or even capable of accepting 2 #6 wires under each lug.
The only breakers I have ever seen were the older Cutler-Hammer and Square D type,and they were 15 and 20 amp. I don't even recall seeing a 30 amp that would accept 2 conductors.
 
Both are definate violations of the NEC. To prove your point, why not call the AHJ and have him look at it and right a report.
They may do this at no charge if you tell them you think it is a safety issue.
I would not close until it is corrected at their (sellers) expense. The corrective measures could be expensive. But it's possible you may only need to buy two new breakers and bring it up to code. Do you have room for two new breakers 1 - 2 pole and 1 single pole? Splices are permitted in panels.
I bet you that the "electrical company" had no permit, thus no inspection.
 
John Valdes said:
. . . why not call the AHJ and have him look at it and write a report.
Until you own the house, I don't think you can do that. Just make sure there is money held in escrow at closing, if it is not already resolved before then.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone. I will be sure to get it corrected. The sub panel is very close to the main panel so they should be able to just move some of the breakers from the main panel in to the sub panel to create room for a large breaker to go to the sub panel.
 
A code compliant fix is easy if the range and subpanel load calculate to 50 amps or less. You just remove the pair of wires, and wire nut a pigtail with them (3 wires in the nut). Then, put the pigtails in the breaker. But now that it is code compliant, that doesn't mean it will work. Just because the subpanel load calculates to a given value doesn't mean that what it really needs. Things like bathroom receptacles, garages, and outdoor receptacles have 0 load associated with them in the calculation. Don't blow dry while cooking if a bathroom is in the subpanel.

Square D and Cutler Hammer CH breakers in the 15 to 20 amp range are listed for two conductors in there terminal. I've never seen a 50 that is rated for more than one wire.
 
Here's my take. Unless this is a brand new house wired to current code there are probably, make that definetely, many violations. That being the case understand that you are buying an older house and not everything is going to be up to snuff. So with that said stop being a pain to the seller, buy the house, and if there are things to be fixed, as I am sure there are, go ahead and fix them. :rolleyes:
 
electricmanscott said:
Here's my take. Unless this is a brand new house wired to current code there are probably, make that definetely, many violations.

I agree

That being the case understand that you are buying an older house and not everything is going to be up to snuff. So with that said stop being a pain to the seller, buy the house,

I don't agree, the sellers 'comfort' is none of my concern. I have every right to ask anything I want of them, just like they have every right to tell me to go pound sand.

When I bought my house I negotiated the price down about 18% of the asking price, most of this had to do with items in the home that needed repair. The sellers chose to drop the price instead of making the repairs. It was a solution that worked for both of us. The sellers could have chosen to keep the house on the market instead.
 
qcroanoke said:
In all my years I have never,ever seen a 50 amp 2 pole breaker listed for
or even capable of accepting 2 #6 wires under each lug.
The only breakers I have ever seen were the older Cutler-Hammer and Square D type,and they were 15 and 20 amp. I don't even recall seeing a 30 amp that would accept 2 conductors.

SquareD QO breakers, 15 through 30 amp will accept 2 conductors. I do not recall ever seeing any larger (residential load center) circuit breakers that would take 2.
 
iwire said:
I don't agree, the sellers 'comfort' is none of my concern. I have every right to ask anything I want of them, just like they have every right to tell me to go pound sand.


Exactly. When I sold my last house the people wanted new concrete steps and the curtains that were hanging in the house. :rolleyes:

They did not get new concrete steps. :smile:
 
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