Double tapping neutral bars

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bdfields

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This probably has been answered in the past but I could not find a "thread." I am a new home inspector and when looking at the Square D distribution panel in my own home noticed all of the neutrals were double tapped. I think NEC prohibits this and now need to know what the correct repair should be and what it might cost. :confused: Thanks for any insight.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Bennie what difference would it make to this question if there are equipment ground conductors on the same bus? :confused:
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Bob: Good question, I wanted an opening to comment about why panels ran out of holes in neutral bars.

This panel will probably be dated for the 50s or early 60s.

When romex did not have an equipment ground conductor, and receptacles were un-grounded, only the neutral needed a hole.

The addition of the ground wire doubled the count for holes. The manufacturers were slow to respond with a larger bus or an additional bus.

Panels were also designed around the Edison system of home runs. 24 circuits would require 12 terminals.

The only remedy is to install an additional bus with sufficient terminals.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

I got it now :) and have seen the what you mean but for a couple of bucks they could put in a ground bar. (If there is space to :( )
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Bob: This is an example of the ones making the rules win the game. Two bucks per panel is a big cost to the manufacturer.

The clean up, and cost, is up to people like you and me. We can't even get a code rule that is a design issue.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

BD

Do you mean two wires under one lug? I am not aware of how you would "tap" a neutral. I am not trying to bust your chops, I what you to be careful on what you say.

You do not what someone like me coming in to "fix" a problem that does not exsist. I will embarrass you. IE breaker # 18 double tapped.

Please be careful with your comments on electrical systems. You (home inspectors) cannot have it both ways. You cannot act as a professional then say that you are just generalists.

I see too many buyers that have been harmed by home inspectors who are not qualified to inspect electrical systems.

Mike P.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Mike, you are correct, I am very new in the inspection business and have a lot to learn. What I have are 2-3 grounds and/or neutrals under one lug. I've also discovered there is no grounding conductor. Thanks for your help.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

BD, you must check the manufacturer's label on the panel to see if they allow more than one conductor under a screw. Some panels will allow more than one ground wire under a single screw. I don't recall seeing acceptance for more than one neutral wire though.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

BD, The Electric code requires that each grounded conductor (the correct name for the "neutral") shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor, regardless of what the manufacturer says.

2002 NEC 408.21

As for grounding conductors (the "grounds")
you can put as many under the lug as the manufacturer says is OK this is generally two maximum.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

>As for grounding conductors (the "grounds")
you can put as many under the lug as the manufacturer says is OK this is generally two maximum.<

Unless they are different sizes. Only same size grounding conductors allowed under same lug.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

When did this rule come about? If the panel has been in there for X years would it be a violation?
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Originally posted by johna:
Unless they are different sizes. Only same size grounding conductors allowed under same lug.
Click to expand...
That is not an NEC requirement.

The only requirement is to use the lug per it's listing.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Maybe I spoke too soon. I was sure that was a requirement under NEC. It would make sense, though, wouldn't it? How could you be confident of good connections when, for instance, two wires are under one screw and one is smaller than the other?
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Hey Mr Inspector sorry I missed your name. Older SQARE D panels allowed up to 4 wires on 1 lug look at the decal on the door. It was and is legal provided the decal so states.
Further many of the Square D Panels allo double lugging of the circuit breakers thats why there are 2 loops on the wire hold down but both must be the same awg size.
Happy Bird.
 
Re: Double tapping neutral bars

Straps,
Older SQARE D panels allowed up to 4 wires on 1 lug look at the decal on the door.
Click to expand...
They must be very old panels. UL Standard 67 for Panelboards has limited terminations of grounded conductors to a single conductor for termination point for many many years. The rule was placed in the 2002 code to make it easier to enforce. Equipment grounding terminations often permit two or three conductors per termination point, but I have never seen a label that permitted four.
Don
 
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