I'm not sure how to describe my problem other then when a Large Motor is On, the Qwest DSL box goes on the Blink and loose's the internet connection, turn the motor off and the Internet connection comes back every time, the Motor in Question is pretty big 460 volt with a simular amount of Amps, At no time Have I Lost the Dial tone itself, on the DSL box I've put a small UPS on the DSL box itself and there is a DSL filter on the line, installed by the local telco, with no help the only "guess" I have is the Motor is inducing some kind of Noise On the Ground I don't think the DSL box itself is a problem as it has been Swapped with No change and when the Motor is off it works fine, any other ideas ?
DSL & Large Motor
- Thread starter jlund
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hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Weird to say the least. I think even a ground problem would be a stretch to explain this. I do think it's noise though.
What are we talking about with distances here? How far away from the modem is the motor and how far apart is the motor, it's wiring and the telephone wiring? What's the motor for?
You hear no noise on the line (dial a digit to break dial tone) when the motor is running?
-Hal
[ November 08, 2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
Weird to say the least. I think even a ground problem would be a stretch to explain this. I do think it's noise though.
What are we talking about with distances here? How far away from the modem is the motor and how far apart is the motor, it's wiring and the telephone wiring? What's the motor for?
You hear no noise on the line (dial a digit to break dial tone) when the motor is running?
-Hal
[ November 08, 2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Dereck is on to something. First I would check the voltage supplied to the DSL with the motor running and without. If that's okay, then I would check to see where the power is being supplied to the motor and the DSL. If it's a shared panelboard, chances are that when the motor is running it is "pulling down" the voltage in that particular distribution system enough to affect the DSL. It may warrant an evaluation of the conductors feeding the motor and quite possibly the conductors feeding the panelboard itself. I would never supply a motor and a DSL from the same panelboard, but it's worth looking into.
Dereck is on to something. First I would check the voltage supplied to the DSL with the motor running and without. If that's okay, then I would check to see where the power is being supplied to the motor and the DSL. If it's a shared panelboard, chances are that when the motor is running it is "pulling down" the voltage in that particular distribution system enough to affect the DSL. It may warrant an evaluation of the conductors feeding the motor and quite possibly the conductors feeding the panelboard itself. I would never supply a motor and a DSL from the same panelboard, but it's worth looking into.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Ummm, no he said the DSL modem was on its own UPS. He could just pull the plug for the UPS to see if there is any power line problem. It would be running on battery then.
Dereck and I suspect noise induced in the telephone wiring from them being close to each other.
-Hal
Ummm, no he said the DSL modem was on its own UPS. He could just pull the plug for the UPS to see if there is any power line problem. It would be running on battery then.
Dereck and I suspect noise induced in the telephone wiring from them being close to each other.
-Hal
Re: DSL & Large Motor
I overlooked the UPS part. However I suspect the UPS is an inexpensive standby type which does nothing to filter power in normal operation.
I am certain it is a noise problem either from the AC or phone line. Hal hit a good point. Put the modem on the UPS, then start the motor. IF it runs you now know the problem is coming from the AC supply. If it drops, the noise is on the phone line. It is a start.
Possible problems:
1. AC circuit is in close proximity or sharing raceways, panels, etc.
2. Telephone line is in close proximity to AC circuits or sharing space.
I overlooked the UPS part. However I suspect the UPS is an inexpensive standby type which does nothing to filter power in normal operation.
I am certain it is a noise problem either from the AC or phone line. Hal hit a good point. Put the modem on the UPS, then start the motor. IF it runs you now know the problem is coming from the AC supply. If it drops, the noise is on the phone line. It is a start.
Possible problems:
1. AC circuit is in close proximity or sharing raceways, panels, etc.
2. Telephone line is in close proximity to AC circuits or sharing space.
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Well, distance wise the Mpop is approximately 30-34 feet from the AC power Entrance and the Motor itself is about 50 feet on the other side of that, I'm thinking two Immediate possibilities One is Noise on the Ground that is only present when the the Motor is running, to hopefully eleminate that I've put a 3 prong to 2 prong cheater on the AC plug of the DSL Box, if it helps I will replace the UPS with a isolation transformer of some kind, the 2nd possibility is some kind of Ground loop or ground problem relative to the phone line as If the Motor is putting some kind of High frequency Noise that is bleeding on to the phone Cable, I wouldn't nessarily be able to hear it, as the DSL "carrier" to my Knowledge is above the "normal hearing spectrum" I'm going to get the specific Information on the Nameplate of the Motor, to see if that would shed some light on the situtation
Well, distance wise the Mpop is approximately 30-34 feet from the AC power Entrance and the Motor itself is about 50 feet on the other side of that, I'm thinking two Immediate possibilities One is Noise on the Ground that is only present when the the Motor is running, to hopefully eleminate that I've put a 3 prong to 2 prong cheater on the AC plug of the DSL Box, if it helps I will replace the UPS with a isolation transformer of some kind, the 2nd possibility is some kind of Ground loop or ground problem relative to the phone line as If the Motor is putting some kind of High frequency Noise that is bleeding on to the phone Cable, I wouldn't nessarily be able to hear it, as the DSL "carrier" to my Knowledge is above the "normal hearing spectrum" I'm going to get the specific Information on the Nameplate of the Motor, to see if that would shed some light on the situtation
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Also I've all but eleminated RF as I've put the DSL box in a heavy Guage steel box 12 guage I think and still lost the dsl signal also when the signal is Lost I can still access the loopback address and I've had the wireless antenna both disabled and enabled and it didn't make any differance as to loosing the signal
Also I've all but eleminated RF as I've put the DSL box in a heavy Guage steel box 12 guage I think and still lost the dsl signal also when the signal is Lost I can still access the loopback address and I've had the wireless antenna both disabled and enabled and it didn't make any differance as to loosing the signal
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
the DSL "carrier" to my Knowledge is above the "normal hearing spectrum"
Actually it's not. You can hear the hiss with a butt set on monitor.
when the signal is Lost I can still access the loopback address
Do you mean the IP address that accesses the modem configuration? See if there is a log and some diagnostics like signal levels. Check it when it's working and again when the motor is running.
-Hal
the DSL "carrier" to my Knowledge is above the "normal hearing spectrum"
Actually it's not. You can hear the hiss with a butt set on monitor.
when the signal is Lost I can still access the loopback address
Do you mean the IP address that accesses the modem configuration? See if there is a log and some diagnostics like signal levels. Check it when it's working and again when the motor is running.
-Hal
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Let me Clarify, currently the UPS a APC 280 has the Linksys router plugged into it and the DSL box is also plugged into it, the Linksys power is just a Normal 2 prong where the actiontec DSL box has 3, the Actiontech is plugged into the UPS with a 3 prong-2 prong cheater plug, both are working normally. (when motor off) with the Motor on or off I can access the DSL box Via it's IP address XXXXXXXX in this case, the Motor is a Baldor Industries, it's particulars are at
web page
Since I haven't been able to get them turn on the motor in a couple of days I haven't any Further Info/testing, Once I will post More,
I'm thinking specifically of replacing the UPS with a ISolation transformer, If NOGO, then perhaps temporarly disconnecting the ground at the qwest Demark, but it's all for Naught till I can get them to turn the Motor back on,
I removed your IP adress for security... Dereck
[ November 15, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
Let me Clarify, currently the UPS a APC 280 has the Linksys router plugged into it and the DSL box is also plugged into it, the Linksys power is just a Normal 2 prong where the actiontec DSL box has 3, the Actiontech is plugged into the UPS with a 3 prong-2 prong cheater plug, both are working normally. (when motor off) with the Motor on or off I can access the DSL box Via it's IP address XXXXXXXX in this case, the Motor is a Baldor Industries, it's particulars are at
web page
Since I haven't been able to get them turn on the motor in a couple of days I haven't any Further Info/testing, Once I will post More,
I'm thinking specifically of replacing the UPS with a ISolation transformer, If NOGO, then perhaps temporarly disconnecting the ground at the qwest Demark, but it's all for Naught till I can get them to turn the Motor back on,
I removed your IP adress for security... Dereck
[ November 15, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Why have you got the modem line cord plugged into the UPS with that adapter??
An isolation transformer or disconnecting the ground at the demarc shouldn't do anything.
Like I said above if you want to see if this is caused by power line noise just pull the plug on the UPS when the motor is running. Also, look at your modem's log to see if there is anything there that might give us a clue.
You still haven't said what this motor is for. I have seen RF TV interference caused by a belt driven blower and not by the motor running it. You also haven't told us about the way the wiring is run or how far apart things are.
-Hal
Why have you got the modem line cord plugged into the UPS with that adapter??
An isolation transformer or disconnecting the ground at the demarc shouldn't do anything.
Like I said above if you want to see if this is caused by power line noise just pull the plug on the UPS when the motor is running. Also, look at your modem's log to see if there is anything there that might give us a clue.
You still haven't said what this motor is for. I have seen RF TV interference caused by a belt driven blower and not by the motor running it. You also haven't told us about the way the wiring is run or how far apart things are.
-Hal
Re: DSL & Large Motor
well, today I got them to turn the Motor On, and the cheater Plug on the UPS didn't do anything it still went dead, and I also Had a "electrical Engineer" who was looking at it with a Fluke power meter and he didn't see anything out of the Ordinary, However when we disconnected the Ground lead going to the Qwest Demark, the DSL & Internet LEDs flipped back on within 30 seconds to minute, and it was repeatable as we did it several times with the Internet and DSL lights coming back on each time, motor off it didn't matter if the ground was in or not, so I can safely say "something" the motor doing it killing the DSL signal, on the phone line, can anyone tell me what frequency the DSL carrier "normally" is
well, today I got them to turn the Motor On, and the cheater Plug on the UPS didn't do anything it still went dead, and I also Had a "electrical Engineer" who was looking at it with a Fluke power meter and he didn't see anything out of the Ordinary, However when we disconnected the Ground lead going to the Qwest Demark, the DSL & Internet LEDs flipped back on within 30 seconds to minute, and it was repeatable as we did it several times with the Internet and DSL lights coming back on each time, motor off it didn't matter if the ground was in or not, so I can safely say "something" the motor doing it killing the DSL signal, on the phone line, can anyone tell me what frequency the DSL carrier "normally" is
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Nothing to do with the carrier. It working when you removed the demarc ground is your first clue. Come to think of it have you ever had Qwest look at this problem? Seems to me that if the demarc is involved it is their problem. Don't know what kind of protectors the demarc uses or where it is grounded but changing either or both may be the solution. But again now it's their problem.
-Hal
Nothing to do with the carrier. It working when you removed the demarc ground is your first clue. Come to think of it have you ever had Qwest look at this problem? Seems to me that if the demarc is involved it is their problem. Don't know what kind of protectors the demarc uses or where it is grounded but changing either or both may be the solution. But again now it's their problem.
-Hal
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Hal shame on you if you think Quest is going to lift a finger to help out. You know better than that. All Quest will do is plug in at the demark, see that everything is OK, and move on.
JLUND here is a couple of things I think might be going on, or a couple of shots in the dark.
1. When the motor comes on, a common mode noise (signal of some sort either 60Hz or a harmonic) is being induced on your DSL cable from close proximity. At the demark I bet you have cable protectors, and the noise is great enough in magnitude to cause the protectors to fire or shunt to ground. When this happens your desired signal (DSL carrier) is shunted to ground via the protectors. If this is the case, Quest will not give a darn becuase it is your problem to fix.
Solution: Either re-route the cable and/or use a shielded cable type like shielded UTP from the demark to DSL modem.
2. The ground Quest is using at the demark is floating or poorly bonded to the service GES.
Solution check it out. Look for small cable routed long distances using mechanical connectors. You want to have a heavy gauge cable like #6 AWG going directly to the GES or GEC. Make sure everthing is bonded.
Good luck.
[ November 17, 2005, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
Hal shame on you if you think Quest is going to lift a finger to help out. You know better than that. All Quest will do is plug in at the demark, see that everything is OK, and move on.
JLUND here is a couple of things I think might be going on, or a couple of shots in the dark.
1. When the motor comes on, a common mode noise (signal of some sort either 60Hz or a harmonic) is being induced on your DSL cable from close proximity. At the demark I bet you have cable protectors, and the noise is great enough in magnitude to cause the protectors to fire or shunt to ground. When this happens your desired signal (DSL carrier) is shunted to ground via the protectors. If this is the case, Quest will not give a darn becuase it is your problem to fix.
Solution: Either re-route the cable and/or use a shielded cable type like shielded UTP from the demark to DSL modem.
2. The ground Quest is using at the demark is floating or poorly bonded to the service GES.
Solution check it out. Look for small cable routed long distances using mechanical connectors. You want to have a heavy gauge cable like #6 AWG going directly to the GES or GEC. Make sure everthing is bonded.
Good luck.
[ November 17, 2005, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Dereck
Heres what I'm thinking:
They have a 277/480Y service, It seems since the problem went away when he disconnected the grounding at the demark, the noise is being put upon the underground/overhead UTP shielding, This would indicate there is parallel neutral current on it,
I would place an amp-probe on this grounding conductor and start the motor to see if any current is present, Since the shielding is bonded both at the pole or underground tap and at the building there could be a bad primary MGN connection somewhere down the road that is causing return current to be trying to return on the shielding of the tel-co drop.
Dereck
Heres what I'm thinking:
They have a 277/480Y service, It seems since the problem went away when he disconnected the grounding at the demark, the noise is being put upon the underground/overhead UTP shielding, This would indicate there is parallel neutral current on it,
I would place an amp-probe on this grounding conductor and start the motor to see if any current is present, Since the shielding is bonded both at the pole or underground tap and at the building there could be a bad primary MGN connection somewhere down the road that is causing return current to be trying to return on the shielding of the tel-co drop.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Yeah, I know what you are saying Dereck but it's worth a shot. Something I would try before I went crazy with this is to connect the modem directly at the demarc. No need to have a network connection, just watch the LEDs. Connect the ground back up and run the motor, see what happens. If it still dies the problem is clearly the demarc, the ground or as hurk suggests a problem with the drop. No way is this your responsibility to fix any more than if the POTS line had the same trouble. We go through this finger pointing all the time. Show em and make em fix it.
-Hal
Yeah, I know what you are saying Dereck but it's worth a shot. Something I would try before I went crazy with this is to connect the modem directly at the demarc. No need to have a network connection, just watch the LEDs. Connect the ground back up and run the motor, see what happens. If it still dies the problem is clearly the demarc, the ground or as hurk suggests a problem with the drop. No way is this your responsibility to fix any more than if the POTS line had the same trouble. We go through this finger pointing all the time. Show em and make em fix it.
-Hal
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: DSL & Large Motor
No as I didn't see it either, But around here all UTP that comes in from the street is shielded and bonded at both ends. I have seen it smoke on a lost secondary neutral, and I could imagine the noise a bad primary MGN would cause on it.
Re: DSL & Large Motor
Hal, OK now I agree with that approach.
Wayne, I will buy that idea, and yes if the demark ground is not bonded to the GES, or the transformer bond is high impedance, missing, improperly terminated, etc, then all the above would apply.
JLUND let us (me) what you come up with. Truly interested in the outcome.
Hal, OK now I agree with that approach.
Wayne, I will buy that idea, and yes if the demark ground is not bonded to the GES, or the transformer bond is high impedance, missing, improperly terminated, etc, then all the above would apply.
JLUND let us (me) what you come up with. Truly interested in the outcome.
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