Duke Energy question

[MJW]

I have a small trailer park in New Richmond, OH and the utility company is Duke Energy. I have a tenant who has not paid his electric bill (or rent) and had his electric service disconnected. He has broken the seal and reconnected his service twice.

My on site manager told me that in the past Duke Energy has cut the underground feeder to the pedestal when a tenant did the same thing. He also said the previous owner of the park had to pay to repair the feeder. My question is if this sounds like something Duke Energy would do?

I don't live in that part of the country or had dealings with Duke Energy but I have never heard of a utility doing something like this. I don't think my on site manager would intentionally misinform me and I'm hoping he just has some facts confused. Thanks in advance for any insight you can give me.

Mike

 

[mivey]

By cut I figure they mean they disconnect it, not snip it in two with bolt cutters.

If they damage your equipment by cutting it with bolt cutters, they should be responsible for the repair. Again, I doubt that is what happens.

If the contract for power is between the tenant and Duke, you should not be charged anything as you are not party to the agreement and can't be held accountable for the dispute between these parties unless you somehow stick your nose in it.

If you are the responsible party but are selling to the tenant under some sub agreement, it is your responsibility to control what goes on on your side of the meter.

 

[mivey]

...He also said the previous owner of the park had to pay to repair the feeder....

They may have sent them a bill for the cost to have someone reconnect the feeders at the pedestal but it would be a cold day before I would pay a cost for something Duke did because they accepted a customer who was a poor credit risk. Seems to me that is not your problem.

 

[MJW]

Thanks for the response mivey. Your reply makes me feel a lot better about the situation. The agreement is 100% between Duke and my tenant. My on site guy made it sound like they had to dig up the feeder to make the repair which doesn't make sense to me. It sure seems easier to have the guy arrested for theft of services than to drag a backhoe out there.

My first call in the morning will be to Duke but at least for tonight I feel a little better. For a minute I thought I might have to hire an electrician in Ohio and we all know how expensive they can be.

 

[mivey]

The agreement is 100% between Duke and my tenant.

Their customer, their problem. I see no need to drag you into the middle of their dispute or how they choose to resolve it. If they damage their own lateral, that's their problem.

My on site guy made it sound like they had to dig up the feeder to make the repair which doesn't make sense to me.

Me either. I suspect there must have been something else going on that got blended in with the re-connect issue. Maybe the customer cut into the lateral or something and Duke tried to pass that cost along to whoever they felt would bite. Wouldn't be me and shouldn't be you as you did not cause the damage.

It sure seems easier to have the guy arrested for theft of services than to drag a backhoe out there.

Maybe they squared off and started drawing lines. Still not your problem.

My first call in the morning will be to Duke but at least for tonight I feel a little better. For a minute I thought I might have to hire an electrician in Ohio and we all know how expensive they can be.

If this is a Duke lateral why would you need the electrician? If it is your conductor, you should make Duke pay for damaging your equipment.

As far as I would be concerned, there was nothing wrong with your stuff beforehand. After Duke decided to handle a dispute with their customer, the dispute resolution made your stuff quit working. Should be Duke's responsibility.

No way should Duke damage your equipment in order to handle a dispute with one of their customers.

 

[growler]

I have a tenant who has not paid his electric bill (or rent) and had his electric service disconnected. He has broken the seal and reconnected his service twice.

My on site manager told me that in the past Duke Energy has cut the underground feeder to the pedestal when a tenant did the same thing. He also said the previous owner of the park had to pay to repair the feeder.

It sure seems easier to have the guy arrested for theft of services than to drag a backhoe out there.

For a minute I thought I might have to hire an electrician in Ohio and we all know how expensive they can be.

I have had to deal with power theft problems several times and I don't like it. The power companies consider anyone that would steal power to be the lowest and they are not in a hurry to help get power turned back on even when trying to do it the legal way.

As far as having to hire an electrician it would be typical for you to have to get an electrician to have power restored. Once power has been stolen the power company will probably require that you get an electrician to permit the trailer hook up and get an inspection before power is restored.

The reason they would cut the feeder is because in mobile home parks there are often two or more trailers metered at on service drop. They can't cut power at the pole or transformer without turning off a paying customer so they put the booties on and if that doesn't do it then a barrel lock but if all else fails they probably would cut the feeder as a dangerous and unauthorized connection.

Yes, I think "any" power company would cut the feeder if it keeps getting hooked up illegally. And they will make it as hard (expensive ) as possible to get power restored.

 

[mivey]

As far as having to hire an electrician it would be typical for you to have to get an electrician to have power restored. Once power has been stolen the power company will probably require that you get an electrician to permit the trailer hook up and get an inspection before power is restored.

And if that cost comes, it should be passed along to the new tenant as part of the move-in cost.

The reason they would cut the feeder is because in mobile home parks there are often two or more trailers metered at on service drop. They can't cut power at the pole or transformer without turning off a paying customer so they put the booties on and if that doesn't do it then a barrel lock but if all else fails they probably would cut the feeder as a dangerous and unauthorized connection.

Yes, I think "any" power company would cut the feeder if it keeps getting hooked up illegally. And they will make it as hard (expensive ) as possible to get power restored.

Duke can cut their wire as much as they want. They can also pass the repair cost (or a "connection cost") along to the new tenant. The park owner should not eat the cost. If Duke insists on a new feeder for every tenant then I would be sure these costs are consistent with how they treat the rest of the similar Duke customer base. No way would I quietly let my park be disenfranchised by making my potential tenants have to pay more than they would to move in to other parks.

Either way, still not a cost that the park owner should eat. If Duke was cutting my line to settle a dispute with their customer, and costing me money, we would have a meeting of the minds.

We serve multiple laterals with a common feeder but we also own the line. Splicing the laterals are a cost of business and we do not pass the cost from one customer to the next (not intentionally anyway). If we choose to cut a line to fix a problem, we don't try to directly pass the cost off to a third party. That's crazy.

Duke is responsible for handling the theft of service costs, not some third party. If sharing a service drop is an issue, maybe that needs to be re-thunk.

 

[growler]

it would be a cold day before I would pay a cost for something Duke did because they accepted a customer who was a poor credit risk. Seems to me that is not your problem.

And if that cost comes, it should be passed along to the new tenant as part of the move-in cost.

Mivey if you want to look at this as who's responsible it's the owner. The owner of a property is responsible for what happens on that property.

It's the mobile home park that decided to rent to a tentant that's a bum and poor credit risk. The power company can't refuse service if the person has the deposit money. I have had to restore power for the same tenant that was stealing power and so long as the fines are paid they have no choice. I did one where a local church paid the fines and back electric bills.

Now, the owner of the propety has the right to try and collect any money they are out from the tenant ( the person that stole power ). If he didn't pay his rent there is a fat chance of that.

You don't have a right to an electrical connection unless the bills are paid and any unauthorized connection can be disconnected ( stealing power makes it an unauthorized connection ).. If they say it's a dangerous connection they can do so by whatever means are necessary.

 

[mivey]

Mivey if you want to look at this as who's responsible it's the owner. The owner of a property is responsible for what happens on that property.

No, they are not.

It's the mobile home park that decided to rent to a tenant that's a bum and poor credit risk. The power company can't refuse service if the person has the deposit money. I have had to restore power for the same tenant that was stealing power and so long as the fines are paid they have no choice. I did one where a local church paid the fines and back electric bills.

And if the thief pays the fines and costs, the park owner does not have to. If these costs are not paid, then service can be refused. They can not refuse service to a new tenant for the past sins of a previous tenant (except for special cases like same household, etc).

Bad debts are a part of the business and are allowed for as part of the rate case. Theft is also covered when they make their rate case. That goes hand in hand with being required to provide service. What is not allowed is for me to pass the cost of theft directly along to a third party.

Now, the owner of the property has the right to try and collect any money they are out from the tenant ( the person that stole power ). If he didn't pay his rent there is a fat chance of that.

The park owner is not responsible for Duke's service drop. Duke owns the stuff on their side of the delivery point (commercial exceptions apply).

Except as otherwise provided in these ELECTRIC SERVICE REGULATIONS, in service agreements or rate schedules, the Company will install and maintain its lines and equipment on its side of the point of delivery, but shall not be required to install or maintain any lines or equipment, except Company owned meters and metering equipment, on the customer's side of the point of delivery without cost to the customer.

You don't have a right to an electrical connection unless the bills are paid and any unauthorized connection can be disconnected ( stealing power makes it an unauthorized connection ).. If they say it's a dangerous connection they can do so by whatever means are necessary.

But that does not mean they can pass the cost along to a third party.

 

[mivey]

If they say it's a dangerous connection they can do so by whatever means are necessary.

Not necessarily. What if they decided it was easier for them to rip the service off the side of a rental house whenever there was theft of service? "Whatever means" with no repercussion is nonsense.

For overhead, we have cut the service drop and hung it way up on the pole to prevent theft. But we do not charge the owner to re-string and connect the drop. Service connect fees cover these type costs for the new tenant. Fines and penalties cover the costs for the thief. We have also removed the wire from the transformer terminations. If we are having a problem with a shared feeder, perhaps we need to quit sharing the feeder. That is a distribution issue.

I can't decide to run a parallel feeder to serve a customer and make sure I can disconnect them without cutting a wire and send the property owner a bill for the feeder. There is usually a regulated fee that covers these type costs (contribution to aid in construction being a separate issue). At any rate, it is an issue between the POCO and their customer. The POCO can't burn my house down to settle a service theft issue my renter (a bit extreme but the fundamental idea is the same). Don't forget I am also obligated to rent to a paying customer. His personal problems do not obligate me to pay for his crimes.

If we do not have a box for the lateral connection, we do not charge the property owner when we re-connect a service lateral. It was our choice to share feeders and to not have an easy disconnect terminal point. That is a cost of business. How many splices do you think are going to be made before the wire is replaced anyway?

If the POCO is taking a loss on service to trailer parks, they need to petition in their next rate case for a higher deposit and/or connect fee for trailer park customers.

 

[growler]

The POCO can't burn my house down to settle a service theft issue my renter (a bit extreme but the fundamental idea is the same). Don't forget I am also obligated to rent to a paying customer. His personal problems do not obligate me to pay for his crimes.

That's betweeen you and your tenant. If he breaks the window out you don't have to pay to have them repaired but it will get cold next winter.

When this tenant connected the feeder to the power company's electrical service without permission he is the one that destroyed your private property and you should have the tenant arrested but the power company is only cutting it loose and preventing a potential hazard.

Once this service has been tampered with the power company has the obligation to see that it's checked out by a licensed electrician and inspected by the AHJ before they reconnect service. ( who knows what all this guy destroyed in his attempt to steal power & the service is no longer considered safe ).

No cost are being passed to a third party, the tenant is responsible and the only problem is getting him to pay. Having bad tenants is just part of being a landlord and is calculated in the rent fees ( it shouldn't be a problem).

So far I have never seen a power company cut a feeder to a mobile home but if looked like a real rigged hazard I'm sure the could and would. On the other hand I have cut the feeder to an out building with the blessing of both the power company and the AHJ because it was a hazard and that was the only way of solving the problem without putting people in the dark and cold.

 

[mivey]

That's between you and your tenant. If he breaks the window out you don't have to pay to have them repaired but it will get cold next winter.

If there is a monopoly service provider for windows, that is between the monopoly window provider and their customer.

When this tenant connected the feeder to the power company's electrical service without permission he is the one that destroyed your private property and you should have the tenant arrested but the power company is only cutting it loose and preventing a potential hazard.

Fine. I'll pay for my property and the POCO will pay for theirs. I'll go after whoever damaged my stuff.

Once this service has been tampered with the power company has the obligation to see that it's checked out by a licensed electrician and inspected by the AHJ before they reconnect service. ( who knows what all this guy destroyed in his attempt to steal power & the service is no longer considered safe ).

If they require an inspection of my stuff, I will pass that along on my trailer connection fees.

No cost are being passed to a third party, the tenant is responsible and the only problem is getting him to pay. Having bad tenants is just part of being a landlord and is calculated in the rent fees ( it shouldn't be a problem).

It is the POCO's wire and the POCO's responsibility (assuming they own the UG cable to the meter base). As for cutting your stuff, consider if the POCO cut a section of a riser out from the weather head to meter base because they say this method of protecting their revenues, their system, the public in general, etc. should be calculated in your rental fees: wouldn't that sound ridiculous?

So far I have never seen a power company cut a feeder to a mobile home but if looked like a real rigged hazard I'm sure the could and would.

And that would part of their cost of doing business. If the thief messed up the landlord's meter can, that is the landlord's problem. The way I understand it, Duke owns the feeder. When the insurance companies battle it out, they are going to say they will fix their client's property.

The POCO would not pay for any of my property that was damaged by the thief but they will pay if they rip the service off the side of my house (except maybe for drastic emergency need).

Neither will I pay for any of their property that was damaged, especially if they voluntarily damaged it. They chose to not have a better means to disconnect feeds to the meters when they designed the feed. That is not the landlord's problem as he had no input in the design process. If my tenant digs a hole in the yard and damages a POCO cable, the POCO goes after my tenant, not me. I am not the tenant's guardian.

On the other hand I have cut the feeder to an out building with the blessing of both the power company and the AHJ because it was a hazard and that was the only way of solving the problem without putting people in the dark and cold.

Who owned the feeder?

 

[growler]

They chose to not have a better means to disconnect feeds to the meters when they designed the feed. That is not the landlord's problem as he had no input in the design process. If my tenant digs a hole in the yard and damages a POCO cable, the POCO goes after my tenant, not me. I am not the tenant's guardian.

Who owned the feeder?

From the work I have done POCO doesn't really have much of a comment on design of the mobile home park.

Are you going to buy two power pedestals and have two service laterals running out through the park when one will work just a well. The service laterals belong to POCO but the pedestal and feeder belong to the park.

It's normal to use dual meter pedestals because it saves space and does the same job and makes for a cheaper install. The only problem is if someone does try to steal power or cuts the service lateral then you can have two people out of power instead of one.

This equipment is up to the park to maintain. The power company gets the transformer and service laterals .

If you own the park then the feeder is yours or it could even belong to the tenant if he owns the mobile home. It doesn't really matter because once power is stolen they will have this service permitted and inspected to insure it's safe before it's hooked back up.

The power company is not going to send you a bill or anything like that. It's just that when the power needs to be turned back on someone will have to pay.

The tenant that's stealing power? He may be in jail or ran of to another state or country.

New tenant that you are trying to rent to? Fat chance, there are two many places to rent open out there and why should he pay for someone elses mistake.

Landlord.....yes, yes, yes, why? because he loses money by leaving the property vacant and he is the only one with any incentive to do so. :lol:

The landlord may cry and you may have to wring a bucket of tears from the check but the landlord pays.

 

[mivey]

From the work I have done POCO doesn't really have much of a comment on design of the mobile home park.

Depends how strict they are. Some can be downright nosy.

Are you going to buy two power pedestals and have two service laterals running out through the park when one will work just a well. The service laterals belong to POCO but the pedestal and feeder belong to the park.

If they are my feeders, the POCO better not be snipping them unless they intend to pay for them. If the feeders belong to the park, the park has the responsibility to make sure the POCO can disconnect what they need to. The POCO should only be messing with their property or they take on unneeded liability. Perhaps they have reached an agreement with the feeder owner to prevent the outage to the other unit.

It's normal to use dual meter pedestals because it saves space and does the same job and makes for a cheaper install. The only problem is if someone does try to steal power or cuts the service lateral then you can have two people out of power instead of one.

Then it sounds like the park has an issue because they cut corners.

This equipment is up to the park to maintain. The power company gets the transformer and service laterals .

Then shame on the park for not having separate disconnect means and for allowing the POCO to damage the park's equipment whenever they feel like it.

If you own the park then the feeder is yours or it could even belong to the tenant if he owns the mobile home. It doesn't really matter because once power is stolen they will have this service permitted and inspected to insure it's safe before it's hooked back up.

Then that needs to be built into the park's cost of business fees and use that fee to wipe the tears.

The power company is not going to send you a bill or anything like that. It's just that when the power needs to be turned back on someone will have to pay.

Sounds like a connect fee that covers cost is in order.

The tenant that's stealing power? He may be in jail or ran of to another state or country.

Yeah, little relief there.

New tenant that you are trying to rent to? Fat chance, there are two many places to rent open out there and why should he pay for someone else's mistake.

Everybody pays. One way or another. If that were not so, my standard of living would be much higher than it is.

Landlord.....yes, yes, yes, why? because he loses money by leaving the property vacant and he is the only one with any incentive to do so. :lol:

That is the most logical conclusion

The landlord may cry and you may have to wring a bucket of tears from the check but the landlord pays.

I love the new icons. :thumbsup: No need to cry over something that has been allowed for in your expenses. Now if the landlord is a poor businessman:

 

[MJW]

It appears there is a common SOP with utility companies. Poor customer service. I called this morning and after doing "stupid human tricks" with the buttons on my phone for 20 minutes I was connected to a real person. She promptly transferred me to the "right' person who was not at her desk. I left a message this morning and still no reply. I guess I will try again tomorrow.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We don't do mobile home parks here as they are under the control of the state, but I have serviced some.

The poco here is only responsible to the transformer. From the transformer is "customer owned" and the park is responsible for it.

As someone else mentioned, here they also daisy chain 5 or six services together and unless you have a very good set of plans the only one you can be sure of is the end of line. So they may have just dug down and cut the lines, I find that highly unlikely, as they would have had to reconnect them to feed any other coaches, but you never know.

 

[MJW]

After 3 days of trying I finally got to talk to a real live person. He said they would not cut the line as my park manager said. I guess everyone else at Duke thought my question was so crazy that it didn't deserve a return phone call. Thanks to everyone who replied.

 

[robbietan]

After 3 days of trying I finally got to talk to a real live person. He said they would not cut the line as my park manager said. I guess everyone else at Duke thought my question was so crazy that it didn't deserve a return phone call. Thanks to everyone who replied.

that was nice. our POCO here would remove the meter if it was found to have broken seals. then bill you with reconnection fees for the trouble