Dwelling panel change and nec 2008

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In my opinion only new circuits would require AFCI breakers.

As far as 80.9(c) that is entirely meaningless unless your area has specifically adopted Article 80. See the note above 80.1.
 
lectricman said:
Wouldn't have mentioned it if we hadn't
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Your the first person that I can remember saying that. I really did not think anyplace did.

In that case I think 80.9(C) is sufficiently vague enough that an AHJ could force the installation of AFCIs on existing circuits.

In my opinion that would be a bad way to go. You can not even buy 2008 NEC compliant 2 pole AFCIs so you would be running into problems with existing multiwire branch circuits.
 
Cuttler hammer and if I'm not mistaken GE manufacture two pole arcfault combination type breakers. I didn't know jurisdictions didn't adopt Annex H. Do they write their own ordinance for enforcement?
 
AFC's apply only to new circuits. You can't be expected to rewire a house with MWBC's when doing a service change.
 
Yes CH is making a two pole arcfault breaker. I've seen them in new home inspections. The two pole is required for multiwire branch circuits 210.4(B).

Now back to my question.

First we have adopted annex h, and 80.9(C) say's alterations, additions and repairs shall conform to new work
Second 90.1(A) purpose of code.
Third 90.5(A) mandatory rules.
Fourth 210.1 scope (can't find anything that say's different in chapters 5,6,or 7
Fifth 210.12(B) is specific to dwelling units and says branch circuits shall be protected by a listed arcfault circuit interrupter, combonation type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

Now, I don't want opinions without a code article to back it up

I'm not looking for an argument ,I'm sincerly trying to find a solution to what I believe is going to be a very expensive poblem in older homes.
 
lectricman said:
I'm not looking for an argument ,I'm sincerly trying to find a solution to what I believe is going to be a very expensive poblem in older homes.
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The 2008 NEC has been in effect for over a year in many places. It has not been a very expensive problem in older homes.

It is widely interpreted that a panel change or service up grade to an existing home does not require AFCI breakers to be installed.

Have you been installing GFCI breakers to protect receptacles requiring GFCI protection?
 
lectricman said:
Cuttler hammer and if I'm not mistaken GE manufacture two pole arcfault combination type breakers.
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I just spoke to "Bob" at Eaton's AFCI technical assistance number, and he says that the Combination Type 2-pole AFCI will not be available until "mid 2009".

I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Respectfully, the 2-pole units that you have seen, if you examine the little label on them closely, I suspect, will say Branch Feeder.
 
electricmanscott said:
Back to my question. Do you have any proof?
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I bought a 2 pole AFCI about 3 years ago for a job I did (going behind another electrician). I had to figure out all the problems on the job. One just happened to be a MWBC on two single pole AFCI's. It was about $100 at the time.

Maybe it wasn't Combination.
 
lectricman said:
If me saying I have seen them in the jurisdition I inspect for in new house's isn't proof, I guess I'd have to say no.
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There is nothing to indicate such a breaker exists.

With that in mind I have to question just what you were looking at on these iinspections. :confused:
 
Lectricman,

First of all, Welcome to the Forum!

Second, ElectricmanScott is baiting you (you don't mind, Scott, if I blow your cover, do you?).

Both Scott and I are working Electrical Contractors. We have to keep an eye on the products needed to comply with the Code, and we have to procure them all the time to do the work that Inspectors, such as yourself, inspect.

Reading your certainty at seeing 2-pole Combination Type AFCI made my heart race. I need that breaker. I have been looking for that breaker. That's why I called Eaton's AFCI Technical Support line. Sadly, any flavor of the 2-pole Combination Type AFCI has not left the various manufacturer's research and development departments yet.

Call your best local electrical supply and ask if they have any 2-pole Combination Type AFCI in stock. If by some strange chance you get someone who says "yes", go get one in your hand and it will not be a Combination Type.

Third.
80.9 Application.
(A) New Installations.
This Code applies to new installations. Buildings with construction permits dated after adoption of this Code shall comply with its requirements.
(B) Existing Installations.
Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants. Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard.
(C) Additions, Alterations, or Repairs.
Additions, alterations, or repairs to any building, structure, or premises shall conform to that required of a new building without requiring the existing building to comply with all the requirements of this Code. Additions, alterations, installations, or repairs shall not cause an existing building to become unsafe or to adversely affect the performance of the building as determined by the authority having jurisdiction. Electrical wiring added to an existing service, feeder, or branch circuit shall not result in an installation that violates the provisions of the Code in force at the time the additions are made.
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lectricman said:
80.9(C) say's alterations, additions and repairs shall conform to new work
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Lectricman, your quote doesn't go far enough into the sentence. When only the residential service panel is altered or repaired or a new larger panel is added, and all the existing branch circuits and feeders are simply reconnected, then the only thing added, altered or repaired is the service panel. The existing branch circuits have nothing new added, altered or repaired.

Here in Minnesota, the Minnesota Dept. of Labor and Industry Electrical Licensing and Inspections is my largest AHJ. They determined re-landing branch circuits and/or feeders in a new panel (at an existing location) does not constitute an "alteration", "addition" nor "repair" of the branch circuits and/or feeders. No AFCIs are required on panel changeout, with the exception of new outlets being added.
 
Lectricman, can you provide a link to your adopted state or local code?

Roger
 
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