dwelling unit definition

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I think it does, but most code authorities say it doesn't.

The same thing applies to a plug in electric range sitting on the floor...how is that permanently installed cooking equipment?
 
One can also raise the same question regarding single burner induction cooktops integrated into a countertop. They look more like a range than even a built-in microwave oven, but the AHJ will still make the determination. Until or unless there is a ruling at the state level.
 
jwhitley said:
Does a permanently installed microwave oven satisfy the requirement for cooking provisions under the dwelling unit definition?
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Can you copy & paste the section/ article/ definition you're trying to comply with?
 
jwhitley said:
Does a permanently installed microwave oven satisfy the requirement for cooking provisions under the dwelling unit definition?
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Is the microwave of the type sold for permanent installation into cabinetry? ...not merely a cord-and-plug-connected model setting in a cabinet cavity.
 
200 years ago that would have been a fireplace.
100 years ago it would have been a wood burning cook stove.
Today it's whatever the AHJ says unless the state has made a binding ruling on it.

jwhitley: What's the context here? Are you designing some dorms or something? Migrant housing? It looks like you'll need to call whoever is going to be doing your plan review / inspections because regardless of what we say here, the building dept has final say in the matter. And that's not that way to give some guy a big head; by law the building official is charged with interpreting the codes. You can always appeal his decision to the FL Building Commission but that's going to take more time & money than what a range costs.

P.S. Welcome to the forums :thumbsup:
 
mgookin said:
200 years ago that would have been a fireplace.
100 years ago it would have been a wood burning cook stove.
Today it's whatever the AHJ says unless the state has made a binding ruling on it.

jwhitley: What's the context here? Are you designing some dorms or something? Migrant housing? It looks like you'll need to call whoever is going to be doing your plan review / inspections because regardless of what we say here, the building dept has final say in the matter. And that's not that way to give some guy a big head; by law the building official is charged with interpreting the codes. You can always appeal his decision to the FL Building Commission but that's going to take more time & money than what a range costs.

P.S. Welcome to the forums :thumbsup:
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This is a hotel with small kitchens, more like efficiencies than guest rooms, 90 units. I wanted to take advantage of the dwelling unit demand factors. The guest rooms have refrigerators, dishwashers, disposals and microwaves.
 
jwhitley said:
This is a hotel with small kitchens, more like efficiencies than guest rooms, 90 units. I wanted to take advantage of the dwelling unit demand factors. The guest rooms have refrigerators, dishwashers, disposals and microwaves.
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Sounds like what's commonly called a kitchenette in the lodging industry. It's very common. I think you're good to go. Keep in mind there's nothing requiring a "kitchen" in a hotel room.

If it makes you more comfortable go ahead and run it by your AHJ for wherever the project is located.
 
jwhitley said:
This is a hotel with small kitchens, more like efficiencies than guest rooms, 90 units. I wanted to take advantage of the dwelling unit demand factors. The guest rooms have refrigerators, dishwashers, disposals and microwaves.
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If it is actually a hotel, I doubt very much the AHJ will permit using dwelling unit demand factors. What you are describing is most likely an extended stay facility... blurring the line between hotel and apartment complex. I'm certain you noticed that apartment houses without tenant cooking provisions are classified under the hotel et al occupancy category for general lighting... but I don't see how it could possibly go the other way. While it is not written into the NEC definition, the AHJ would likely use other conditions to determine whether these could possibly be dwelling units, such as commercial zoning.
 
I don't see how the AHJ can look at anything other than the NEC definition of a dwelling unit to make this ruling. What other codes or rules have to say have nothing to do with the issue when the term is defined in Article 100.

Many of the extended stay rooms that I have been in have been wired as dwelling units because they had a cook top. These places also had the two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits and AFCI protection as required for dwelling units. They also had a panel in the unit.
 
Smart $ said:
.... While it is not written into the NEC definition, the AHJ would likely use other conditions to determine whether these could possibly be dwelling units, such as commercial zoning.
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Not in Florida (which is where OP is but that does not mean the project is located in FL). There is a law that says you can not use zoning to enforce building codes and you can't use building codes to enforce zoning.

It's going to be whatever AHJ says it's going to be.

But let's back up a second here... is this for the purpose of determing how to do the load calculations? Or to determine whether a cooktop is required? Generally speaking the NEC is not going to require something - it's just going to tell you how to install it if you have it.
 
mgookin said:
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But let's back up a second here... is this for the purpose of determing how to do the load calculations? Or to determine whether a cooktop is required? Generally speaking the NEC is not going to require something - it's just going to tell you how to install it if you have it.
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You are correct that the NEC is not telling you that the unit has to be a dwelling unit.

If the cooking equipment is a "permanent provision for cooking", then it lets you use the dwelling unit calculations, but also triggers all of the other dwelling unit rules like the two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits and the AFCI rules and a few others.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
You are correct that the NEC is not telling you that the unit has to be a dwelling unit.

If the cooking equipment is a "permanent provision for cooking", then it lets you use the dwelling unit calculations, but also triggers all of the other dwelling unit rules like the two 20 amp small appliance branch circuits and the AFCI rules and a few others.
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Thanks Don; that's good stuff.

I'd think the owner wants GFCI's & non-overloaded SABC's anyway (you know they'll have coffee so why not have another circuit). Where I was going with it is, if it's just a matter of some small stuff, just run the load calcs both ways and do a worst case sceanario branch circuit design and see where it goes. It just might put you right where you want to be anyway, or so close to it that the issue is moot.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I don't see how the AHJ can look at anything other than the NEC definition of a dwelling unit to make this ruling. What other codes or rules have to say have nothing to do with the issue when the term is defined in Article 100.

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mgookin said:
Not in Florida (which is where OP is but that does not mean the project is located in FL). There is a law that says you can not use zoning to enforce building codes and you can't use building codes to enforce zoning.

It's going to be whatever AHJ says it's going to be.

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To my point, Tables 220.12 and 220.42 both say "Type of Occupancy". I don't see anywhere in the Code that says the definition of dwelling unit is a 'type of occupancy' qualifier. If it is a dwelling unit in a hotel occupancy, I believe the AHJ will most likely say it is a hotel occupancy... but I understand some may permit wiring individual units as dwelling units.
 
Smart $ said:
To my point, Tables 220.12 and 220.42 both say "Type of Occupancy". I don't see anywhere in the Code that says the definition of dwelling unit is a 'type of occupancy' qualifier. If it is a dwelling unit in a hotel occupancy, I believe the AHJ will most likely say it is a hotel occupancy... but I understand some may permit wiring individual units as dwelling units.
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I don't think it is an issue of "permitting" the units to be wired as dwelling units....if the individual units meet the definition of a dwelling unit as found in Article 100, they are required to be wired as a dwelling units.
Given the additional costs to wire each unit as a dwelling unit, in many cases the contractor fights to keep the unit a "guest room or suite".
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I don't think it is an issue of "permitting" the units to be wired as dwelling units....if the individual units meet the definition of a dwelling unit as found in Article 100, they are required to be wired as a dwelling units.
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That's just it. Kind of hard to technically qualify a hotel one-room with bath unit as a dwelling unit, IMO. Units may provide for "sleeping, cooking, and sanitation" but the "living" aspect is easily debated for most.

Given the additional costs to wire each unit as a dwelling unit, in many cases the contractor fights to keep the unit a "guest room or suite".
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I've never done a cost evaluation, so can't comment.
 
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