Dwelling unit or not? Secion 210.11(c)(3)

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

stuartdmc

Senior Member
Location
Newport Beach, Irvine, CA
Good Day Gentlemen,
I have recently designed a Hotel in the ?OC? (Orange County, CA) which I?ve interpreted the NEC in one manner and the inspector another. I invite your opinions ?Please?. The dwgs went through plan check and although they too miss things construction is starting and time is of the essence ?I have interpreted section 210 .11(c)(3) to be applied to Dwelling units only therefore I designed the Hotel rooms with two circuits using one circuit for the bathroom lighting, (vanity and overhead lighting) the counter GFCI as well as two entry way connivance receptacles and the other for around the room, the inspector is asking that I design the rooms with one dedicated circuit for the bathrooms GFCI, as if it was dwelling unit. Am I missing something?
 
stuartdmc said:
Good Day Gentlemen,
I have recently designed a Hotel in the ?OC? (Orange County, CA) which I?ve interpreted the NEC in one manner and the inspector another. I invite your opinions ?Please?. The dwgs went through plan check and although they too miss things construction is starting and time is of the essence ?I have interpreted section 210 .11(c)(3) to be applied to Dwelling units only therefore I designed the Hotel rooms with two circuits using one circuit for the bathroom lighting, (vanity and overhead lighting) the counter GFCI as well as two entry way connivance receptacles and the other for around the room, the inspector is asking that I design the rooms with one dedicated circuit for the bathrooms GFCI, as if it was dwelling unit. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Just out of curiousity why not keep the "entry way receps" on the "room" circuit and leave the bathroom stuff on the bath GFCI ciruit. Then you'd be covered by the exception.

Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single​
​
​
​
bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same room shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).​

 
As long as the hotel guest rooms and suites don't have permanent provisions for cooking then they are not considered as "dwelling units". (See 210.18)

Chris
 
Since you state that you have "counter GFCI's" I assume that these rooms have provisions for cooking. If so they must be treated as dwelling units with all which that includes as indicated by Raider1. The key detail is cooking facilities.
 
stuartdmc said:
. . . there is absolutely no Space Elicited for eating nor "Permanent Provisions for cooking." Therefore it should not be determined as a dwelling unit. Right?
Click to expand...
Please clarify. You have a countertop, and I presume a sink (else why the GFCI?). But you do not have a stove, oven, or other permanent provision for cooking? Is that correct?

If so, this is not a "dwelling unit."
 
stuartdmc said:
Per the definition of Dwelling units, there is absolutely no Space Elicited for eating nor ?Permanent Provisions for cooking. Therefore it should not be determined as a dwelling unit. Right?
Click to expand...

Don't go to the Article 100 definition of dwelling unit. 210.18 states that if a guest room or guest suite is provided with permanent provisions for cooking it shall have branch circuits and outlets installed to meet the rules for dwelling units.

So "space elicited for eating" has no bearing on the determination of whether or not a guest room or suite is a dwelling unit.

Basically if there is not permanent provisions for cooking, then the guest room/suite doesn't need to follow the rules for a dwelling unit.

Chris
 
Ran into a similar problem a few months back where an engineer mistakenly assumed that just because the units in a motel had provisions for a counter top, plug in microwave that they were dwelling units and required arc fault protection. The microwave on the counter is not 'Permanent' so this is really NOT a dwelling unit.
They still installed the AFCI breakers, caused another problem with too much heat from the breakers in the panels, they passed their final and the owner had all of the AFCI breakers replaced with standard breakers (legal to do) and got rid of the heat problem.
So...........it's not a dwelling unit, you don't have to comply with requirements FOR a dwelling unit.
 
Please clarify. You have a countertop, and I presume a sink (else why the GFCI?). But you do not have a stove, oven, or other permanent provision for cooking? Is that correct?


This is Correct.

The units have a bathroom, in the bathroom there is a counter top and a basin or sink. A room with one or two beds a TV, chairs and desk there is a coffee maker and a small refrigerator, that it no Permanent connections to anything but the HP or AC unit.

What should be my argument with the inspector?
How do I help him see the point here?
 
What should be my argument with the inspector?
How do I help him see the point here?[/quote] Show the inspector 210.18 & the plans where there are no permanent provisions for cooking. Good luck
 
The NEC and the building code may differ on the term Dwelling.

Dwelling Unit. One or more rooms for the use of one or more persons as a housekeeping unit with space for eating, living, and sleeping, and permanent provisions for cooking and sanitation.
Click to expand...

The NEC doen't have an "OR" in it. The building codes may? Not sure which would have pesidence if any?
 
e57 said:
The NEC and the building code may differ on the term Dwelling.



The NEC doen't have an "OR" in it. The building codes may? Not sure which would have pesidence if any?
Click to expand...

Again the definition of "dwelling unit" from Article 100 really has no bearing on a hotel room/suite being required to comply with the rules for a dwelling unit. All that is required, according to 210.18, is permanent provisions for cooking. If a guest room/suite has permanent provisions for cooking regardless of any of the other things mentioned in the definition of dwelling unit, then the room/suite must comply with the rules for a dwelling unit.

Chris
 
No, there is not a permanently installed hair dry. Why do you ask?

No, there is not a permanently installed hair dry. Or not that I know of. They may install one latter down the road, plug it into the GFCI then screw the base and cord to the wall But I don?t think so, this is a high end Marriott Renaissance Club Sport.
Why do you ask?
 
Because a perminant hair dryer or other equipment fastened in place may hit the 50/80 rules for circuits... See 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2). Calc'ing all other outlets at 180 per strap, equipment and total lighting... It might pay to call it a dwelling....

raider1, that was exactly my point, there is no 'optional or inclusive' "OR", just listing commas and "AND" in the definition....
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top