Easier Way for Multiple Whips

[jmellc]

Replaced several can lights with these. I like these lights but multiple whips are really hard. Wiring area is very shallow. 1 whip into an end isn’t bad but this area had 2, 3 & 4 whips in them. I added j boxes on top & chase nippled 1 set of wires into the light. Worked fairly well. I just wish the manufacturers would put some thought into designs. An extra inch of depth would help a lot. Then again, the lights do fit well in tight spaces & are adjustable for wattage & color. Very lightweight too.

 

[electrofelon]

Replaced several can lights with these. I like these lights but multiple whips are really hard. Wiring area is very shallow. 1 whip into an end isn’t bad but this area had 2, 3 & 4 whips in them. I added j boxes on top & chase nippled 1 set of wires into the light. Worked fairly well. I just wish the manufacturers would put some thought into designs. An extra inch of depth would help a lot. Then again, the lights do fit well in tight spaces & are adjustable for wattage & color. Very lightweight too.

Good job. Yeah some of these fixture junction boxes are ridiculous.

So just so I can fully understand what was going on, what do you mean by multiple whips? Were there a bunch of feed outs? If that is the case, I don't know if I would call them "whips" as they would need to be full sized. Any reason not to run a single 18 gauge whip for the light and put the junction box above the ceiling?

 

[hbiss]

Replaced several can lights with these.

What are "these"? Looks like a 2x2' lay-in for a hung ceiling?

-Hal

 

[infinity]

Why not pull the fixture wires through the chase nipple and make one splice in the box?

 

[jmellc]

Why not pull the fixture wires through the chase nipple and make one splice in the box?

Fixture wires are a bit short to do that. Wouldn’t allow remakes.

 

[jmellc]

What are "these"? Looks like a 2x2' lay-in for a hung ceiling?

-Hal

Yes.

 

[jmellc]

Good job. Yeah some of these fixture junction boxes are ridiculous.

So just so I can fully understand what was going on, what do you mean by multiple whips? Were there a bunch of feed outs? If that is the case, I don't know if I would call them "whips" as they would need to be full sized. Any reason not to run a single 18 gauge whip for the light and put the junction box above the ceiling?

I replaced existing can lights. Whips are 12-2 and 12-3 MC cables. I would for sure do j boxes overhead if I were doing it new but had to work with what was there. No time to rework everything, lights are in a breezeway & had to jump in at slow times, clear out in busy times.
I am a big fan of 1 whip per light when doable, for sure.

 

[Electromatic]

Just be glad you didn't also have 0-10V dimming wires to deal with!
We did an office earlier this year with really flat LED lay-ins and could barely get (2) 12-2 MC w/dimming in & out in the wiring compartment.

 

[jmellc]

Just be glad you didn't also have 0-10V dimming wires to deal with!
We did an office earlier this year with really flat LED lay-ins and could barely get (2) 12-2 MC w/dimming in & out in the wiring compartment.

Factories should hire field electricians to help design products. A few simple changes would cost little & sell well.

 

[electrofelon]

Factories should hire field electricians to help design products. A few simple changes would cost little & sell well.

Yeah, or........
The listing agencies should have requirements for reasonably sized connection compartments. Makes me wonder what they are actually accomplishing and what other things they are not looking at

 

[jmellc]

Yeah, or........
The listing agencies should have requirements for reasonably sized connection compartments. Makes me wonder what they are actually accomplishing and what other things they are not looking at

Oh, don’t get me started about that. UL is the biggest crock out there. I’ve seen all kinds of junk that carries their label. Tiny junction boxes on range hoods, hot/neutral reversed on pilot lights, light shades that burn from heat of the bulbs, etc.
What they ARE looking at is the profits for selling their label.

 

[Fred B]

Oh, don’t get me started about that. UL is the biggest crock out there. I’ve seen all kinds of junk that carries their label. Tiny junction boxes on range hoods, hot/neutral reversed on pilot lights, light shades that burn from heat of the bulbs, etc.
What they ARE looking at is the profits for selling their label.

The problem is the influx of "forged UL" that are being imported. That really cuts into the credibility of the "Listing" of the product. Another factor is utilization of a listed product outside of it's listing, failure in such a situation is not the fault of the listing organization. Also listing is based on "as designed and provided for testing", if a mfg varies from original to "make it cheaper" that again is not the fault of the listing agency.

 

[tortuga]

I thought it was a huge mistake for the 2008 NEC to remove 'construction specifications' from the code, and add 410.6 requiring all luminares to be listed.
When the NEC has 'construction specifications' in an article UL takes these very seriously and incorporates them to their standards.
And that's how we Electricians have say in the UL process, otherwise its 100% $$$ and manufacturer driven.

For example the 2005 NEC had a section

410.18 Exposed Luminaire (Fixture) Parts
(A) Exposed Conductive Parts Exposed metal parts shall
be grounded or insulated from ground and other conducting
surfaces or be inaccessible to unqualified personnel. Lamp
tie wires, mounting screws, clips, and decorative bands on
glass spaced at least 38 mm (11⁄2 in.) from lamp terminals
shall not be required to be grounded.

Then UL lobbied into the 2008 that 410.18 and all NEC construction specifications got deleted.
Since then we've been left with
UL 1598 (Section 6.14.1.2 ) which states that decorative parts, metal guards, metal shades that do not enclose live parts need not be grounded.
Now UL 1598 is one of many standards that covers 'construction specifications' of Luminaire's, and there is no NEC requirement to use UL 1598 one could use CEC, or IEC standards as well if the AHJ approves.
So its huge mess that everyone ignores.
And every code cycle there is another proposal to remove 'construction specifications' from the code.
And every time that passes you as electricians loose you say in what manufacturers can get away with.

 

[jmellc]

The problem is the influx of "forged UL" that are being imported. That really cuts into the credibility of the "Listing" of the product. Another factor is utilization of a listed product outside of it's listing, failure in such a situation is not the fault of the listing organization. Also listing is based on "as designed and provided for testing", if a mfg varies from original to "make it cheaper" that again is not the fault of the listing agency.

So, if I reported the junk to UL, they would revoke their approval & make manufacturers & dealers recall the product? I won’t hold my breath on that.

Are forged UL labels really that common? If so, has UL gone after the perpetrators?

 

[Fred B]

So, if I reported the junk to UL, they would revoke their approval & make manufacturers & dealers recall the product? I won’t hold my breath on that.

Are forged UL labels really that common? If so, has UL gone after the perpetrators?

Most forged UL are from out of country mfg. Hard for them to stop, Biggest deterrent would be stop buying the cheap subpar foreign products, but as long as people are buying the "cheapest" that can be found, that is ineffective. Read an article recently that stated legitimate mfg's are being hit by these counterfeit products being sold hyper cheap on line.
The cheap online counterfeit stuff is even hurting us who have to justify material cost to a HO that looks for it online and say "I can get that online for $xxx, why you charging me so much?

 

[tortuga]

Keep in mind UL is often the standards body but not the NRTL (testing lab), and NRTL's are for profit entities, so if UL rejects a manufacturer or charges too much they can go to CSA or ETL or any other NRTL.

 

[jmellc]

Most forged UL are from out of country mfg. Hard for them to stop, Biggest deterrent would be stop buying the cheap subpar foreign products, but as long as people are buying the "cheapest" that can be found, that is ineffective. Read an article recently that stated legitimate mfg's are being hit by these counterfeit products being sold hyper cheap on line.
The cheap online counterfeit stuff is even hurting us who have to justify material cost to a HO that looks for it online and say "I can get that online for $xxx, why you charging me so much?

That loops back to stores & supply houses often not having stock on the shelves and do supply houses add to the problem by ordering from overseas? My boss got our last lights from a local supply house but the lights are made in Cambodia.

 

[tortuga]

The whole Luminaire listing thing is an unenforceable joke with boxed products.
It only gets enforced when you as the electrician need to modify a fixture or build a custom one for say a retail display.
Then you get to pay $5k for a UL field evaluation to get it 'listed'.
I have not ever met an electrician or an inspector whom was unqualified to judge if a Luminaire (Fixture) was safe and well made, forged sticker or not.

 

[Eddie702]

So, if I reported the junk to UL, they would revoke their approval & make manufacturers & dealers recall the product? I won’t hold my breath on that.

Are forged UL labels really that common? If so, has UL gone after the perpetrators?

I ordered a portable generator cord online and when I opened it it said UL approved on it. I happened to check and found the "legal' UL symbol has a circle around it. I went back and checked the cord and the UL was enclosed by a triangle.

I guess the triangle is the symbol for the "Chinese UL" division LOL

 

[jmellc]

I ordered a portable generator cord online and when I opened it it said UL approved on it. I happened to check and found the "legal' UL symbol has a circle around it. I went back and checked the cord and the UL was enclosed by a triangle.

I guess the triangle is the symbol for the "Chinese UL" division LOL

My state of NC makes it a misdemeanor to sell any electrical product without UL or other approved lab label. I have seen a list somewhere before but none of the others are labs I ever heard of.
If your state is similar, could you report the product to your state authorities?