Eaton BR, CL, and T&B breakers - same thing with different paperwork?

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EDonkey

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Triad, NC, US
Hi! I'm grateful for the opportunity to post here and read your opinions.

I have a 1994 built house and the panel is missing the label. I identified the panel as a T&B TBB20. I got a copy of the label.

Some clown finished the basement himself and put square D HOM120 breakers on his #14 wiring. Wife must move into the house immediately, so this is an emergency. I asked an electrician and he told me to get BR115, and even if the HOM breakers were properly sized he would not want this situation in his house or anything he worked on. Now I know I am "supposed" to put CL in this panel. But I think the situation is better. The BR are easy to get in stores immediately, the CL not so much.

Most of the T&B breakers in this panel are not marked as to their type on their face and I had to pull them out to get this information from a sticker on the side with the T&B logo and model number (TB115, TB120, etc.) There are a few TB120 which are marked properly on the face but their switch handle varies slightly with its legend and mold. These breakers have a different UL file number than the others. It could be that T&B actually had different manufacturing lines or retooled the parts, or they could have been reselling breakers that other companies made.

After comparing both sets T&B breakers with the BR breakers I got, they look the same to me from the outside. There are only minor variances in the features of the plastic, rivets are in exactly the same place, same warnings molded into the housings in the same place but maybe the typeface differs, etc.

Most interesting to me is that the new BR breakers have the same UL file number E7819 as the first set of T&B breakers and this file number is assigned to Eaton now. I'm pretty sure the BR is a product line Eaton acquired and maybe another company acquired it before Eaton. The file number on the other set of T&B breakers is not found. The file number on the panel and main breaker belongs to Eaton now. I haven't looked into the CSA listings because I'm not in Canada, but they are all different.

I know that I need the CL breakers to pass an inspection. This work shouldn't pass anyway for other reasons. I am more worried about safety, and whether the BR breakers in this panel are a hazard.

Are there any real differences inside the BR and CL breakers, or the BR and old T&B breakers? It seems reasonable to me that if Eaton tested their BR breaker in all those different panels, that the usual customer of BR shouldn't have to pay for all that lab work and paperwork, so they could give them a different marking and have the CL customers pay for all this.
 
To meet code you will have to follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly. If you don't know what those are you will have to call them and ask what breakers are listed for use with their panels. Trying to reverse engineer it from the UL label or counting rivets is not included in those instructions. I have no idea what breaker fits the T & B loadcenter so I would have to call.

The house you bought either has a CO or it does not. That determines if you can move in (along with W's approval). You appear to be saying you bought someone else's unfinished project "as is", which is or is not true.

I suspect this thread will be closed unless you have the necessary license.
 
__dan said:
I suspect this thread will be closed unless you have the necessary license.
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my guess as well.

you best bet is to hire a qualified EC to handle this work. There are likely other issues that might need to be addressed such as GFCI and AFCI protection where required.
 
Occupancy permission was never in jeopardy because the clown who finished the basement never pulled a permit. This is a rural area and it seems that everything about permits and inspections are lax here. I would not be surprised if this is the kind of place where the inspector simply sits in the car and signs off on the paperwork.

I may need a whole new panel to pass inspection, when I face it in the future (I am not going to do unpermitted work) simply because the label is missing. I doubt Eaton would be very eager to give it to me, for a 20 year old product from a line they acquired and shut down. Am I wrong? I can't replace the panel right now.

I just want to know for now how likely or unlikely the breakers in the panel are to be an actual hazard, while I wait for the CL breakers.

It might follow that if the TB115 that look like Challenger breakers are actually relabeled C115, then the BR115 which is also a C115 ought to be ok, despite not having the correct markings for code.

However if someone tells me they smashed open a BR115 and CL115 and noticed that one has extra or obviously different parts I would shut them off, pay and wait.

Sorry if this is not the right place to ask for advice like this. I have respect for the rules and tradesmen and your experience. I am in a new region and am reluctant to hire someone from the phone book.
 
One of the tells is the general standard of work performed, not necessarily one specific instance. That's where an experienced professional eye on it can 'read' it and find quickly if it looks generally like professional work throughout or has been obviously hacked by one clueless homeowner after another over the years.

The breakers by themselves are not a tell, imo, but the general standard of work held to would reveal itself quickly to someone who reads electrical. That's what you would want to know, if it's only breakers or the entire methodology of how the work was pursued.

My recommendation would be to pay a small fee to a licensed professional (electrician) to examine, read the work, and make a written list of proposed work and remedial actions. This money should repay itself in savings by giving you an economical and compliant path looking forward over the life of the install rather than haphazardly fixing the same thing more than once or going forward with things that do not add value.

Remember that if this industry standard code complaint path had been seen and followed before beginning any of the work you have inherited, likely you would not have to fix anything now.
 
You're so right, Dan: if this guy had not figured he had the right to do this work, simply because the materials are sold at the hardware store, I would not be facing this. I know that a complete evaluation is outside my qualification, but I do know some things that are not allowed, and it seems like every electrical and plumbing rule that I know about has been broken. There is so much more that I don't know.

The home inspector pointed out the breakers and undersized wires and they are ridiculous things to do. And it is representative of the whole job. Everything I see is ridiculous.
 
Since T&B panels are former Challenger products and are no longer made, what is a UL classified breaker for them? They used to advertise that the T&B breakers were UL classified as interchangeable with other makes like ITE/Siemens, Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer, & others.
 
norcal said:
Since T&B panels are former Challenger products and are no longer made, what is a UL classified breaker for them? They used to advertise that the T&B breakers were UL classified as interchangeable with other makes like ITE/Siemens, Bryant/Westinghouse/Cutler-Hammer, & others.
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As I alluded to in my post above, if I encounter an old T&B panel, I use C-H BR in them without a second thought. Or if I find a T&B breaker, I'll use it in a BR panel.
 
I have a "UL Classified Circuit Breaker Replacement Chart" and it lists the T&B as replaceable with the Eaton CL breaker.
Don't have a way of posting it other than taking a picture of it.

You can go to Eaton's site and look at the chart.
 
EDonkey said:
..I know that I need the CL breakers to pass an inspection. This work shouldn't pass anyway for other reasons. I am more worried about safety, and whether the BR breakers in this panel are a hazard.
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Where licensed, or Master electricians touch your equipment, they typically warranty it for inspection purposes. So, if inspectors fail it, or if it burns down the building, a warranty or GL policy covers it, if you made sure they had General Liability.

The other advantage is the Master's supplier, which is another source for technical support. They may note prior to Eaton's CL line, the only extensively classified breaker manufacturer was Thomas & Betts, and may have 15A T&B replacement breakers.

Maybe your supplier stocks Eaton Type CL breakers, or retro-fit kits, needed for failed inspections, but Master-Electrician suppliers don't, since residential inspectors rarely use UL issues to jerk around licensed Masters.

UL issues are special medicine inspectors use when Home Owners, Handymen, or kitchen re-modelers touch the wiring, or when gardener's run 120v cords thru the planters.
 
Someone asked what was 'inside'...?

I read a bit after the whole counterfeit campaign to realize most manufactures use the same 3rd world sweat shops , the counterfeits being nothing more than the lesser models from them, albeit some may be no more than a switch...

They appear in American panels , having slipped thru 'internet cracks', and one of us graces a full page ad in a trade rag behind bars....

Further, the 'classified' may indeed retrofit many makes, yet have no more 'guts' than their non classified counterparts, merely having achieved bureaucratic blessings by whatever means to market them as such.

Considering an NRTL mag trip standard for residential miniature breakers seems to be non existent makes me think their validity is entirely a 110.3B

~RJ~
 
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