EGC required?

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JoeNorm

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I am fixing a broken overhead service to a cabin. Owner decided they might as well take the opportunity to put the feed underground so that is what we did.

Relocated the meter and disconnect near the transformer. I am wondering if I am now required to pull in a EGC and separate grounds and neutrals at the main panel in the cabin since my location of first means of disconnect has changed? In a new install I know this would be correct but I am not sure about retrofits like this.

I'd prefer to leave things alone since it's an older panel and not much room to work and I may end up breaking something.
 
JoeNorm said:
I am fixing a broken overhead service to a cabin. Owner decided they might as well take the opportunity to put the feed underground so that is what we did.

Relocated the meter and disconnect near the transformer. I am wondering if I am now required to pull in a EGC and separate grounds and neutrals at the main panel in the cabin since my location of first means of disconnect has changed? In a new install I know this would be correct but I am not sure about retrofits like this.

I'd prefer to leave things alone since it's an older panel and not much room to work and I may end up breaking something.
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Are you on 2020 code? If so make your outside disconnect the emergency disco bond the neutral to the case and keep 3 conductor to your main panel/service disconnect.
 
JoeNorm said:
I am wondering if I am now required to pull in a EGC and separate grounds and neutrals at the main panel in the cabin since my location of first means of disconnect has changed?
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I think it depends on whether the new disconnect is a breaker or a switch. Breaker = EGC; switch = no EGC.
 
Check out 250.32(B)(1) Exception No.1, I have had success with it in a similar situation.
If you do need to convert to a 4-wire feeder, you might also need to upgrade the range and dryer receptacles if there are any 250.142(B) Exception No 1.
 
tortuga said:
Check out 250.32(B)(1) Exception No.1, I have had success with it in a similar situation.
If you do need to convert to a 4-wire feeder, you might also need to upgrade the range and dryer receptacles if there are any 250.142(B) Exception No 1.
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that would be a real mess.

I think I asked this once before but never got an answer.

Given virtually all unfused switches are rated for no more than 10 kA of short circuit current, how would one implement the outdoor switch idea if the SCC available exceeds 10 kA?????
 
I have used the 250.32(B)(1) exception before when the feeders are existing and we update to a meter/main with a OCPD.

I am not seeing how this situation is different besides the fact that I do have the option to pull in an EGC. The interior panel is very old and I'd be hard pressed to even fit a ground bar inside.
 
LarryFine said:
Okay. OCPD = EGC; no OCPD = no EGC.
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I don't agree. 230.85(3) says you can use a "...circuit breaker on the supply side of [a] service disconnect that [is] ... marked ... : Emergency Disconnect Not Service Equipment". Nothing about the way 230.85 is written implies that extra OCPD makes any more difference than the extra switch.
 
jaggedben said:
I don't agree. 230.85(3) says you can use a "...circuit breaker on the supply side of [a] service disconnect that [is] ... marked ... : Emergency Disconnect Not Service Equipment". Nothing about the way 230.85 is written implies that extra OCPD makes any more difference than the extra switch.
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Excellent. I'm happy to be wrong on this one.
 
JoeNorm said:
I have used the 250.32(B)(1) exception before when the feeders are existing and we update to a meter/main with a OCPD.

I am not seeing how this situation is different besides the fact that I do have the option to pull in an EGC. The interior panel is very old and I'd be hard pressed to even fit a ground bar inside.
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Perhaps by the time you mess around with reworking grounds and neutrals in the old panel you could just replace that panel also?
How many circuits is it?
If its less than 10 I'd just replace it.
Whatever you decide to do I am glad your thinking it thru, I have seen some really hacked together 4 wire conversions where they just put everything under a split bolt.
 
LarryFine said:
I think it depends on whether the new disconnect is a breaker or a switch. Breaker = EGC; switch = no EGC.
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There is nothing in the code language that even comes close to saying that. It is simply which of the 3 labels in 230.85 that you apply to the emergency disconnect. This is intentional to permit the installation of an emergency disconnect without requiring changes to the grounding at the existing interior service equipment.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
There is nothing in the code language that even comes close to saying that. It is simply which of the 3 labels in 230.85 that you apply to the emergency disconnect. This is intentional to permit the installation of an emergency disconnect without requiring changes to the grounding at the existing interior service equipment.
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Yes, I already got corrected on that one. 🤥
 
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