EGC size for 200 amp feeder

[UPMICHIGAN]

Red tagged in northern Michigan for “Undersized “ equipment grounding conductor on a 200 amp feeder.

Inspector sited 3603.1 of the Michigan residential code. service, feeder, and grounding electrode conductor sizing is the name of the paragraph header

I installed a #6 EGC for a 200 amp feeder from a main service rated generac transfer switch to a 200 amp sub panel. Inspector said I need to run a #4 copper EGC. Of course he calls it a grounding electrode cunductor

Looking for help on how to nicely explain to the inspector his error

 

[masterinbama]

A copy of table 250-95

 

[infinity]

What does 3603.1 actually say? Since he said GEC he's most likely looking at the wrong table.

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

A copy of table 250-95

The problem with this his is he thinks it’s a grounding electrode conductor and is pointing to 250.66

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

What does 3603.1 actually say? Since he said GEC he's most likely looking at the wrong table.

Section E3603 is titled service, feeder, and grounding electrode conductor sizing.

It discusses grounded, ungrounded, and grounding electrode conductor sizes. It touches on things like the 83% rule for service conductors and gives a table for sizing the GEC which is 250-66 out of the NEC

Absolutely no mention of an EGC in there at all. Not till E3607 does it talk about EGC and it clearly states #6 copper is approved and sites table 250-122 from NEC

My problem the inspector things an EGC is an GEC. And now I’m stuck trying to teach him the difference

 

[texie]

Section E3603 is titled service, feeder, and grounding electrode conductor sizing.

It discusses grounded, ungrounded, and grounding electrode conductor sizes. It touches on things like the 83% rule for service conductors and gives a table for sizing the GEC which is 250-66 out of the NEC

Absolutely no mention of an EGC in there at all. Not till E3607 does it talk about EGC and it clearly states #6 copper is approved and sites table 250-122 from NEC

My problem the inspector things an EGC is an GEC. And now I’m stuck trying to teach him the difference

Well, sadly, we have too many inspectors that are not competent and don't understand basic NEC terms, requirements and reasons for them.
Of course this cuts both ways as we also have the same issue on the installer side. Sad state of affairs and getting worse as the years go by.
You are going to just have to educate him. When the inspector is clearly wrong it needs to be dealt with not just complied with.

 

[qcroanoke]

Section E3603 is titled service, feeder, and grounding electrode conductor sizing.

It discusses grounded, ungrounded, and grounding electrode conductor sizes. It touches on things like the 83% rule for service conductors and gives a table for sizing the GEC which is 250-66 out of the NEC

Absolutely no mention of an EGC in there at all. Not till E3607 does it talk about EGC and it clearly states #6 copper is approved and sites table 250-122 from NEC

My problem the inspector things an EGC is an GEC. And now I’m stuck trying to teach him the difference

Does Michigan rules give the definition of equipment grounding conductor? Grounding electrode conductor? If not show him what the NEC defines them as.
That should be enough

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

Well, sadly, we have too many inspectors that are not competent and don't understand basic NEC terms, requirements and reasons for them.
Of course this cuts both ways as we also have the same issue on the installer side. Sad state of affairs and getting worse as the years go by.
You are going to just have to educate him. When the inspector is clearly wrong it needs to be dealt with not just complied with.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

The conductor in question is less than 10’ long. The equipment is located on a stanchion so I literally just need to go from the main disconnect to the sub panel right next to it. It’s about a 15 minute drive from my house. But the real problem is if I don’t fight this, how do I size EGCs moving forward? For the rest of my career I have to size my EGCs out of 250-66 to be compliant under this guy?

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

Does Michigan rules give the definition of equipment grounding conductor? Grounding electrode conductor? If not show him what the NEC defines them as.
That should be enough

Thank you for taking the time to reply

I will definitely look into to definitions in the Michigan rules. When I sited NEC tables he told me he “didn’t want to hear” it because “sometimes Michigan does things differently “. Which is nonsense actually because there’s very very little difference between the Michigan electrical code and the NEC. It’s almost a word for word copy. Especially no difference in grounding practices

When I asked him to tell me specifically what the article said, he fumbled his words and said it “says something like this” and “you’ll just have to look for your self”.

Quite frustrating to be honest

 

[LarryFine]

But the real problem is if I don’t fight this, how do I size EGCs moving forward? For the rest of my career I have to size my EGCs out of 250-66 to be compliant under this guy?

Exactly why you should not kowtow to improper rulings; it sets a bad precedent for the future.

It's just as wrong for him to fail something improperly as it is for him to pass something improperly.

When I asked him to tell me specifically what the article said, he fumbled his words and said it “says something like this” and “you’ll just have to look for your self”.

Tell him you did look it up, and he's flat-out incorrect. Also, don't be afraid to climb the food chain.

Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Politely challenge his ruling and appeal to the head inspector.

 

[texie]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

The conductor in question is less than 10’ long. The equipment is located on a stanchion so I literally just need to go from the main disconnect to the sub panel right next to it. It’s about a 15 minute drive from my house. But the real problem is if I don’t fight this, how do I size EGCs moving forward? For the rest of my career I have to size my EGCs out of 250-66 to be compliant under this guy?

That is the reason I feel so strongly that wrong calls by an inspector should not go unchallenged. It does not serve anyone including the owner, the AHJ, the public or the contractor to perpetuate incompetence.
I've seen cases where an inspector calls something as wrong and they want a correction that actually creates a violation and sometimes creates serious code and safety issues.

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

Exactly why you should not kowtow to improper rulings; it sets a bad precedent for the future.

It's just as wrong for him to fail something improperly as it is for him to pass something improperly.


Tell him you did look it up, and he's flat-out incorrect. Also, don't be afraid to climb the food chain.

Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Politely challenge his ruling and appeal to the head inspector.

Thank you so much for replying. I have a meeting with him tomorrow and climbing the food chain is exactly what I will do if I don’t get a reversal

 

[wwhitney]

For the Michigan Residential Code, the relevant definitions are in Chapter 35, E3505.1 (a long list). See the definitions of "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" and "Grounding Electrode Conductor".

Chapter 35 Electrical Definitions: Electrical Definitions, Michigan Residential Code 2015 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Cheers, Wayne

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

For the Michigan Residential Code, the relevant definitions are in Chapter 35, E3505.1 (a long list). See the definitions of "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" and "Grounding Electrode Conductor".

Chapter 35 Electrical Definitions: Electrical Definitions, Michigan Residential Code 2015 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks Wayne!

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

These may be helpful.

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

These may be helpful.

Thank you for your assistance. I will be sure to include these in my meeting tomorrow

 

[texie]

Thank you for your assistance. I will be sure to include these in my meeting tomorrow

We all sure hope that you will share the resolution of this.

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

We all sure hope that you will share the resolution of this.

Will do sir

 

[UPMICHIGAN]

Just wanted to give an update on this thread

After a hard fought battle the inspector left saying he was reversing his decision.

At first he argued the conductors in question were not feeder conductors because they supplied 100% of the dwelling load

I must say most headway was made by reciting definitions. Thank you Wayne for the definition attachments from the Michigan residential code.

I read him the definition of service conductors then read him the definition of feeder conductors. His face turned red! He then said “show me in here where it says you can wire it that way”. My immediate response was it’s your job to tell me why I can’t not my job to tell you why I can

He kept going back to E3704.1 of the MRC. Which states, “ Feeder conductors that do not serve 100 percent of the dwelling unit load and branch-circuit conductors shall be of a size sufficient to carry the load as determined by this chapter. Feeder conductors shall not be required to be larger than the service-entrance conductors that supply the dwelling unit. The load for feeder conductors that serve as the main powerfeeder to a dwelling unit shall be determined as specified in Chapter 36 for services. [310.15(B)(7)(2) and (3)]

My response to this was this is neither here nor there. My feeder conductors do meet all those acquirements, but you red tagged me on my equipment, grounding conductor.

At this point, he continued flipping through the pages going back and forth to table 250-122 and finally closed up the book and said OK I’ll pass it

One thing that still bothers me is how does an inspector make it nearly 15 years inspecting electrical equipment and not know the difference between an equipment grounding conductor, and a grounding electrode conductor, and the difference between feeder conductors and service conductors?

 

[LarryFine]

One thing that still bothers me is how does an inspector make it nearly 15 years inspecting electrical equipment and not know the difference between an equipment grounding conductor, and a grounding electrode conductor, and the difference between feeder conductors and service conductors?

Because nobody stood up to him before now.