EGC Used as Neutral

[Little Bill]

I was asked to install a 120V receptacle on a parking lot light pole. I asked what the voltage was for the light but they didn't know. I took the handhole cover off and checked and it was 240V with no neutral. I told them there was no neutral and I couldn't legally/safely install the receptacle. They said there was already one installed on another pole, so I went to check it out. I found what I expected, EGC used as neutral. Apparently these lights either belong to the POCO or the POCO just maintains them. That was another giant reason to not install the recep, especially without their permission.

I think these are fed straight from the POCO's transformer. The feed is underground and I didn't see any disconnect anywhere. My question is if this is fed straight from POCO they probably just tied the EGC to the neutral/grounded conductor at the transformer. Is this really unsafe as far as using the EGC for the neutral? I know what happens in a branch circuit, but this is a straight feed. I checked continuity from the pole to the EGC and found none.
I also know it would be unsafe since it doesn't have OCP for 20A, but wonder about the EGC being the neutral in this case.

 

[wirenut1980]

If this circuit is owned/maintained by the utiity, then you normally just have hot and neutral...i.e. the neutral and ground are one and the same in the utility world.

 

[jumper]

POCOs/utilities do a lot of weird stuff. I have worked on a few of their pole lights and they were never NEC compliant.

 

[Little Bill]

So other than non NEC compliant and no proper OCPD (15 0r 20A) this is probably safe if on a GFCI receptacle?

 

[jumper]

So other than non NEC compliant and no proper OCPD (15 0r 20A) this is probably safe if on a GFCI receptacle?

Bill, it still depends by what standards. Is it it safe? IDK, not IMHO.

Yes, a GFCI works fine without a EGC, but a neutral from a EGC is bad IMO.

Would I install a receptacle on that POCO pole? Nope. But NESC has its own rules.

.

 

[Little Bill]

Bill, it still depends by what standards. Is it it safe? IDK, not IMHO.

Yes, a GFCI works fine without a EGC, but a neutral from a EGC is bad IMO.

Would I install a receptacle on that POCO pole? Nope. But NESC has its own rules.

.

I know a GFCI works without a ground. My concern is if the bare EGC comes in contact with the metal pole while someone was using or plugging something in and they were grounded, they might receive a shock. I know the GFCI should trip, but they would feel it for a second and might cause them to fall, hit their head, or something similar.

It ain't the NESC or POCO that wants this receptacle, it's the owners of the parking lot.:happyno:

 

[jumper]

It ain't the NESC or POCO that wants this receptacle, it's the owners of the parking lot.:happyno:

Then since its is 240V without a neutral and no proper OCPD- I would say no.

I am sure some handyman will come behind you and install it, but you do not need that liability.

I despise turning down any work, but sometimes I just gotta.

 

[Little Bill]

Then since its is 240V without a neutral and no proper OCPD- I would say no.

I am sure some handyman will come behind you and install it, but you do not need that liability.

I despise turning down any work, but sometimes I just gotta.

I'm pretty sure it was a handyman that installed the recep on the other pole.

 

[jumper]

Okay, we are running in circles here.

Your OP asked this:

Is this really unsafe as far as using the EGC for the neutral?

By the NEC, yes-but you know that.

By NESC- probably not.

In reality-maybe, might never be a problem or somebody gets hurt tomorrow.

There is no 100% answer.

 

[Ponchik]

I'm pretty sure it was a handyman that installed the recep on the other pole.

it doesn't have to be a handyman, i have seen my share of "licensed electricians" that do bad installations.

On second note, if the GFCI gets over loaded with equipment that draw more than 20Amp which OCPD will protect the circuit conductors?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Will the GFCI work? I don't care. Not a safe installation IMHO.
As to liabilty. Bet no inspection on this one. If something happens bet the POCO is going to point the finger at you as the expert.

Walk away from the job.

Now what is your duty to report this questionable installation? What if someone gets hurt and you say nothing.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/05/24/loc_ohboyelectrocuted24.html

Love the last line: "Workers who touched the pole were not shocked, he said.":ashamed:

 

[kwired]

Okay, we are running in circles here.

Your OP asked this:

By the NEC, yes-but you know that.

By NESC- probably not.

In reality-maybe, might never be a problem or somebody gets hurt tomorrow.

There is no 100% answer.

NESC likely does not cover this installation at all. POCO guys just happen to apply same rules as they would for anything else that is covered by NESC.

 

[kwired]

You ask if it is safe or not. Lets just forget codes for a minute and apply some theory along with some "what if's" failures and I think you will find it to be not so safe.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I know a GFCI works without a ground. My concern is if the bare EGC comes in contact with the metal pole while someone was using or plugging something in and they were grounded, they might receive a shock. I know the GFCI should trip, but they would feel it for a second and might cause them to fall, hit their head, or something similar.

It ain't the NESC or POCO that wants this receptacle, it's the owners of the parking lot.:happyno:

The pole is (should be) installed under the grounding rules in NESC. Look in the hand hole, you should see the pole bonded to the bare wire. We install poles like this all the time with a 12-2 UF and 240 volts. Our drop is less if we use 240.
Nec compliant? like jumper and others have stated, you know it's not. Is it safe? Well, lets just say that the bare wire is bonded to the pole, and there isn't a ground rod within 50 feet of the pole. If the bare wire carries any imbalance back to the source, and the pole is isolated from the actual earth , yet bonded to the bare wire being used as a neutral, one could get a nasty or life threatning(?) shock by standing on the area around the pole and touching the pole.

This pole was never meant to have a receptacle mounted to it, and it is power theft. First I would make sure the laws aren't being broken by installing a receptacle on a utility owned pole. Does the parking lot owners have permission?

 

[Little Bill]

First off, I already told them I could/would not put in the receptacle.

I know it's not compliant

My question was, if installed, would it be safe.
I know the rules for not bonding past the 1st disconnect and all from the NEC
This was a different situation in that the bare wire (EGC) is already tied to the grounded conductor at the transformer, and is run straight to the lights, no panel involved.

To HV&LV: I checked continuity from the bare wire to the pole and there was none. I checked several places and can't get any continuity, so the pole must not be bonded.
Does the POCO you work for have any kind of OCP for lighting installs like this at the transformer?

Edit: Also HV&LV, how is the customers charged for lighting owned/maintained by the POCO? Do they have some way of metering this at the transformer? Or do they know approx. what each light pulls for a period of time and just charge an average for each light?

 

[Hv&Lv]

First off, I already told them I could/would not put in the receptacle.

I know it's not compliant

My question was, if installed, would it be safe.
I know the rules for not bonding past the 1st disconnect and all from the NEC
This was a different situation in that the bare wire (EGC) is already tied to the grounded conductor at the transformer, and is run straight to the lights, no panel involved.

To HV&LV: I checked continuity from the bare wire to the pole and there was none. I checked several places and can't get any continuity, so the pole must not be bonded.
Does the POCO you work for have any kind of OCP for lighting installs like this at the transformer?

Actually yes. We use a Homac in line fuse holder/disconnect at the transformer. Unfotunately most do not.

Look at the pole and see if there are inline fuses on the lighting wires. Of course, if it is a padmount, you won't know.
I know the condition you have is around in many states. I believe New York and the larger cities are having the employees go around and check every light to see that there are no stray voltage issues. it only takes one person to get injured and sue to pay for a proper bonding practice as described in rule 092(B) and rule 097(A).

 

[kwired]

First off, I already told them I could/would not put in the receptacle.

I know it's not compliant

My question was, if installed, would it be safe.
I know the rules for not bonding past the 1st disconnect and all from the NEC
This was a different situation in that the bare wire (EGC) is already tied to the grounded conductor at the transformer, and is run straight to the lights, no panel involved.

To HV&LV: I checked continuity from the bare wire to the pole and there was none. I checked several places and can't get any continuity, so the pole must not be bonded.
Does the POCO you work for have any kind of OCP for lighting installs like this at the transformer?

What is not safe is no different than running to any other structure with improper overcurrent protection or improper grounding and bonding. If the pole is not bonded to a grounding conductor and an ungrounded conductor comes in contact with the pole the pole is energized. If the pole is grounded with a low impedance ground then enough fault current flows to cause operation of (properly installed) overcurrent devices, and greatly diminishes risk of the pole remaining energized.

Non use of separate neutral conductors from equipment grounding conductors creates possible rise in potential because of voltage drop from the pole that is bonded to a current carrying conductor and earth ground.

But you already know this - why are you questioning it?

POCO's often do not have overcurrent protection or separate EGC for lighting that is fed from overhead conductors. But at least the equipment involved (if on wood poles) is isolated and out of reach of general public. Metal poles can still introduce hazards if there are grounding problems.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Actually yes. We use a Homac in line fuse holder/disconnect at the transformer. Unfotunately most do not.

Look at the pole and see if there are inline fuses on the lighting wires. Of course, if it is a padmount, you won't know.
I know the condition you have is around in many states. I believe New York and the larger cities are having the employees go around and check every light to see that there are no stray voltage issues. it only takes one person to get injured and sue to pay for a proper bonding practice as described in rule 092(B) and rule 097(A).

I wanted to add that the transformers have secondary breakers installed in them. They are to protect the transformer only, they are not for the protection of any wiring downstream. And kwired is correct, we do not install any added protection for lighting fed from overhead sources. But bonding of metal poles is a must.

 

[Little Bill]

I wanted to add that the transformers have secondary breakers installed in them. They are to protect the transformer only, they are not for the protection of any wiring downstream. And kwired is correct, we do not install any added protection for lighting fed from overhead sources. But bonding of metal poles is a must.

I didn't check for bonding at the pole where they wanted the receptacle or any other of the poles except the one that already had the receptacle. If it was bonded, I sure can't tell it now as I found no continuity between the bare EGC and the pole. I checked at screws and several places on the pole.

To Kwire: I'm asking because I explained the unsafe part to the customer and I don't think he bought it because the recep he has already has been there for a few years. I wanted some assurance that I was right and if I need to show them this thread, I can!:thumbsup:

 

[KWH]

An inline fuse holder would protect the ungrounded conductor but how would you ground the pole even without the receptacle, you have a egc from the pole lights and a grounded conductor from the transformer, what would you do to prevent a shock from the pole.