Either "Old School" or "Jury Rigged"-I don't know

[AFJES]

I have a 150 amp Federal Pacific panel that I need to swap out. I won the bid but went by the house today to write up a list of materials for the panel so I knew what to buy.

Well, to say the least I was a bit surprised as to what I found. Now maybe it is old school workmanship that I am not familiar with or a jury rig to get it to work right but I am a bit perplexed. Please forgive me if this does not stick me as though I should have known this.

The panel I have to swap out is a sub-panel. 150amp rated. While looking inside today and giving it a "go-over" to get my parts list I noticed a few things that bend my mind. The reason why I want to ask these questions is because I want to know if I want to take the liability of this project or give the owner his deposit back.

There is a Romex coming into the panel, the white wire (we will not call it a neutral yet) goes directly to a two pole breaker, then the black wire from the same Romex is wire nutted to another Romex going out of the panel to the boiler (heating system). That Romex's white wire comes back into the sub panel and connects to the neutral bar. It looks like the Romex coming into the panel first is coming from the main panel in the garage next to it. What the heck?? There seems to be a few Romex's doing this.

This house is not occupied at this time, the owners live in a different state and the general contractor has subbed me to swap out the panel. But after looking at it closer today I was stumped as to what the heck the person was doing when they did this. The other white wire on that same two pole 20amp breaker I don't even know where that is going in the house as I just stopped, took a breath and was not sure if I wanted to tackle this. Two white wires (I call them only white and not nuetrals) because they are both connected to the same two pole breaker.

Anyone have a clue as to what the person that wired this was thinking at the time or attempting to accomplish. I went to school for electrical, got my certification and have been in the field for about 7 years but this is something I have yet to see.

Any clues would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[mwm1752]

Draw a 1 line -- almost sounds like the 1st romex is nothing more than a switch leg ( think of having your ceiling fixture fed hot & dropping down to a switch) -- no marking tape on the breakered white wire?

 

[AFJES]

no marking tape on the breakered white wire?

No markings at all. I know what a switch leg is but can't wrap my head around the concept of why they would do this in a breaker panel. As I said there are two whites on this two pole breaker. I only know where the one is going because it goes to the furnace just feet away (easy to trace) have no clue where the other one goes though; it just goes up into the floor joists and gone after that. I am not about to go tracing it out in the house.

My biggest concern is - do I take this on and take on the liability if someone jury rigged it to work? I also noticed that a 12 gauge wire was wired nutted to a 10 gauge wire in the panel, almost like a pass-through in and out of the panel. I know a 12 gauge can only handle 20amps and 10 is good for 30 but this is crazy!! I am wondering now if I should turn this down, I need the money but I am not sure if this is something I want to re-"jury rig" if that is what it is doing.

Advice please??

 

[ActionDave]

You sound like you are not sure of yourself. That's fine, discretion is always the better part of valor. If you don't have the confidence to do this job then walk away now before your in deep and losing money.

 

[AFJES]

You sound like you are not sure of yourself. That's fine, discretion is always the better part of valor. If you don't have the confidence to do this job then walk away now before your in deep and losing money.

Not so much that I am not sure of myself but more so "what the heck" in the way of why did someone wire it this way. If I have a better understanding of what was trying to be accomplished I have no problems tackling this as it is another learning experience. I was thinking I can mark all of the wires prior to removing them from the panel and pulling the panel off of the wall. Tackling something new is not a problem with me; tackling something that has been jury rigged and may cause problems in the future may be a problem for me. My concern is liability.

 

[JFletcher]

Sounds like maybe another homerun was repurposed as a switch loop for the boiler. Is there a proper disconnect for it? As for two whites on the same 2P breaker, it could be two different circuits. Are there any black wires on the neutral bar, or are they all wire-nutted together/pass thru in the panel?

Personally, I'd take this job, at least it sounds interesting and you may learn something from it... and get a few gray hairs in the process, but it's not run-of-the-mill tedium here from the description.

Chances are the #12 to #10 was done because the electrician who did it didnt have the correct breaker on hand, and/or the #12 was too short to reach the breaker and he just grabbed a #10 pigtail. Is the #10 landed on a 20 or 30A breaker?

btw, a toner/tracer like data guys use can help. I already have 3 sending units and one probe. As long as there is no power on the line, you wont fry it. I know they make line voltage ones as well.

It's your job to replace the subpanel. Anything extra, like finding rigged wiring (doublefed circuits, neutrals tied together that trip AFCI/GFCI, etc.) that causes other problems, is (or should be) beyond the scope of the contracted price.

 

[AFJES]

It's your job to replace the subpanel. Anything extra, like finding rigged wiring (doublefed circuits, neutrals tied together that trip AFCI/GFCI, etc.) that causes other problems, is (or should be) beyond the scope of the contracted price.

Thank you, EXCELLENT POINT!! Never thought of that. If in the future AFCIs or GFCIs are added or soon down the line how can I possibly prove that I rewired the panel exactly the way it was originally. I would be held liable for this and would be held liable to correct it with the owner thinking I did something wrong. For the $350 I was getting to replace it I don't think all the grey hairs in the future are worth it. I have an excellent rapport with the contractor and would not want to put him in a bad position with the owner.

Very seriously thinking of turning this job down. Votes Please??

 

[Barbqranch]

If you do decide to do it, and I probably would (in the ignorance of not seeing it first hand), I would take lots of pictures, overview and close-ups. Then, after downloading the pictures, perhaps make notes to go w/ them.

Also, talk to the GC, you might be able to get a little more money out of it.

 

[ptonsparky]

Thank you, EXCELLENT POINT!! Never thought of that. If in the future AFCIs or GFCIs are added or soon down the line how can I possibly prove that I rewired the panel exactly the way it was originally. I would be held liable for this and would be held liable to correct it with the owner thinking I did something wrong. For the $350 I was getting to replace it I don't think all the grey hairs in the future are worth it. I have an excellent rapport with the contractor and would not want to put him in a bad position with the owner.

Very seriously thinking of turning this job down. Votes Please??

IMO, you already lost money, I don't care how fast you are. No way I would price a project like that without looking at it first and I loose enough money even after looking at them.

 

[readydave8]

Votes Please??

re-bid based on what you have seen, include appropriate qualifications and clauses in new bid

 

[ggunn]

Tear it all out, do it right, and charge them for it.

 

[junkhound]

disclaimer: I do not do residential for hire, only do for self, neighbors, and relatives as a courtesy.

However, cannot even imagine bidding on any job without having seen what is entailed first !

Walk away or re-bid, chalk your time spent to date up to education and a good lesson to look at what you bid on. Your profit off a small $350 job may not be worth the pain.
Or you can do the job and chalk the finding up to education cost if you cannot pry more $$ from the GC (good luck!). You imply you need the work, so maybe you have nothing to loose except unbilled time?

That said, I did recently troubleshoot the neighbors house for her after the husband died last August (age 94). He had never worked on the system himself, but the original electrician that wired the house apparently tied neutrals to a bath circuit and the gas furnace. After 25 years, a GFCI had changed enough that it tripped on about 5.2 mA leakage when the furnace came on, had never tripped before.
Was interesting that the trip never occurred till late Sept when the furnace first came on. The wall wart that powered the cable TV box was on the GFCI circuit, so TV didn't work which is why neighbor asked me to take a look.

 

[JFletcher]

If the panel is rigged as you say, then you cant wire it up the way it is, you'd have to make it right. 350 for a panel change is very low imo, even my FPE panel with a whopping 9 homeruns would take a while to change, assuming I moved the washing machine, racks, shelves, etc out of the way first. Sure, it's only 9HR, but it's a tiny thing and you'd have to cut into the plasterboard/skimcoat walls to install a new panel, cleanup. and even under VA's relaxed code on AFCI, this house would still require 2 of them.

and yeah, finding neutrals that are tied together is fun! We spent the better part of 5 hours tracking down 3 instances of this on one circuit where we installed an AFCI breaker. Breaker change: 15 minutes. Troubleshooting why it wont stay on: 4+ hours.

Keep this in mind: if the panel is this rigged, what do you think was done outside of it?

 

[AFJES]

Thank you all for your very good input on this situation of mine. I did contact the contractor and explain my concerns on this project. His biggest thing now is that he explained to the elderly couple just how dangerous the Fed Pac panel is to begin with and that is why he suggested to them to have it swapped out. The contractor already accepted the deposit check and would like me to do the job and has offered me more money to do it. I told him I have to have the day to think about it. My problem is I want to do what is right and safe but at the same time not let this contractor down as he has been great with me. I do all of his work for him and I even do the electrical on all of the residential rental properties that he owns. I almost feel as though if I don't do this how will he feel about having me do other things in the future.

And yes, I did not sleep well at all last night constantly thinking about this :?

 

[AFJES]

Draw a 1 line -- almost sounds like the 1st romex is nothing more than a switch leg ( think of having your ceiling fixture fed hot & dropping down to a switch) -- no marking tape on the breakered white wire?

Yup, this came to me last night while I was thinking about it. Maybe in order to put in a safety shut off switch in the house to shut off the furnace they ran a romex from the fed pac panel up to the switch in the house. The romex going up into the house is connected to the breaker (white wire), goes up to the switch back down on the black wire in the panel then back out on another romex to the furnace to feed power to it. But why would they put it on a two pole 15 amp breaker; reason, they did not have two single pole breakers maybe. That two pole breaker has that one white wire and another white wire on it; don't know where the other one goes though. Instead of doing the switch leg connections in the panel why did they not do it in a junction box outside the panel? Odd!!

 

[James L]

I sub from 2 generals, and both are notorious for calling me for a price over the phone. They don't know what they're looking at to be able to accurately convey a scope of work, and it always looks like no big deal to them.

I've had to learn to give them a range, from lowest normal price to about triple that price - just in case. But i also ask a lot of questions first.

But once in a great while, I'll find myself in something i couldn't have thought of first. And depending on how goofy it is, i usually just suck it up and do it.

Only because they feed me regularly. Sometimes if you're in a subcontractor pool, you just do it. You might find that you'll spend less time just doing it than you would waiting for approval and rescheduling. And the extra money may not be worth the hassle.

But it sounds like you need to raise your prices. As a general rule for me, any service related work is 3 times hourly rate

 

[mwm1752]

Thank you all for your very good input on this situation of mine. I did contact the contractor and explain my concerns on this project. His biggest thing now is that he explained to the elderly couple just how dangerous the Fed Pac panel is to begin with and that is why he suggested to them to have it swapped out. The contractor already accepted the deposit check and would like me to do the job and has offered me more money to do it. I told him I have to have the day to think about it. My problem is I want to do what is right and safe but at the same time not let this contractor down as he has been great with me. I do all of his work for him and I even do the electrical on all of the residential rental properties that he owns. I almost feel as though if I don't do this how will he feel about having me do other things in the future.

And yes, I did not sleep well at all last night constantly thinking about this :?

No good deed goes unpunished -- struggling with circumstances as elderly couple on a limited budget, contractor who give you consistant work. Sometimes it is better doing the right thing. If most of you expenses are due to time & not material I would most likely charge what is fair - accept what is affordable & recieve good charma from the contractor. Walking away from a potentially harmful situation never set well with me personally. Making the situation safe may take a bit of time but sometimes the knowledge learned from a project can be valuable for another project. Peace of mind has no price. good luck & if you continue to submit pics or a 1 line I would certainly give you my 2 cents worth.

 

[K8MHZ]

There is a Romex coming into the panel, the white wire (we will not call it a neutral yet) goes directly to a two pole breaker, then the black wire from the same Romex is wire nutted to another Romex going out of the panel to the boiler (heating system). That Romex's white wire comes back into the sub panel and connects to the neutral bar. It looks like the Romex coming into the panel first is coming from the main panel in the garage next to it. What the heck?? There seems to be a few Romex's doing this.

Thanks

Been there, done that. Actually, it's more common than you think.

If you do the job, here are your choices:

1) Mark the conductors and wire them back up the way they came off, paying close attention to which 'leg' they are on, regardless of insulation color. If the breaker holds when the circuit is energized, which it probably will, you are done.

2) Disconnect the conductors you aren't sure of and leave them that way. When you are done, see if you can find something (like a pump) that isn't working. If everything is working, which happens about half the time, you are done. If you find something not working, troubleshoot that device. At least you know what you are dealing with.

3) Spend hours to reverse engineer the wiring with about a 25 percent chance of it being needed, and a 75 percent chance of it going to some device that has failed and been disconnected years ago.

If you plan on working on old houses, expect to see lots of crazy stuff like this.

 

[growler]

No markings at all. I know what a switch leg is but can't wrap my head around the concept of why they would do this in a breaker panel. As I said there are two whites on this two pole breaker. I only know where the one is going because it goes to the furnace just feet away (easy to trace) have no clue where the other one goes though; it just goes up into the floor joists and gone after that. I am not about to go tracing it out in the house.

This is how I deal with this.

White wires on breakers get re-identified before they are removed( I use red tape, it shows up real well ). I take a book of wire numbers and make sure that each circuit conductor is marked before it's removed. With new panel everything is placed back exactly where it was in the old panel.

Once you have changed out the panel any trouble -shooting that is needed is a seperate charge as this is not part of the panel change.

A switch leg make up in the panel is not that odd. Where you would normally see this is where a time clock was added to control a lighting circuit.

 

[growler]

If you plan on working on old houses, expect to see lots of crazy stuff like this.

I fully agree. I have seen circuits fed with old lamp cords and extension cord and all sorts of rigging.