electric car stations

Hendrix

Senior Member
Is there any truth to the rumor that they will be required in all new resi. construction in 1017 :(
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
I assume you mean the 2017 NEC.

In any case, no. EVCS / EVSE will not be required in the 2017 NEC. Something tells me someone is confusing the First Revision to the 2017 introducing a new requirement in 210.11(C)(4) &/or the change to 210.52(G)(1).

See FR 330 and FR 317.
 

Rampage_Rick

Senior Member
Might come under municipal building codes first. Vancouver has required certain allowances for EVs since 2011, upgraded this year:

Single Family Homes - Each garage or carport to have a pre-wired 240-volt 40amp circuit in place labelled for use for charging an electric car. Occupants will still need to install the actual charger but it will mean the wiring is in place which can be difficult and expensive to do after original construction. There is an exception in place if the home lacks the required power supply but it still requires an empty electrical chase be installed for future use (this would be more expensive to install than pre-wiring so anticipate builders to just pre-wire)

Homes with 3 or more living units (including mixed use commercial) - 20% of parking spaces for occupants must have a receptacle for charging electric cars. The code further says this receptacle must supply 40amp 240v or 208v (3-phase) power. It will be interested to see if this means the actual charger must be installed or if putting a standard oven/laundry style 240v receptacle is acceptable. The electrical room in the building must have ’sufficient space’ to accommodate future upgrades to allow ALL parking spaces to have 240v power in the future.

Other Commercial (including commercial portion of Mixed Use Buildings) - 10% of all parking stalls must have the same 240-volt receptacle as above. This means NEW workplaces, shopping malls, restaurants, office buildings, etc all will have to have 10% of parking spaces with power for charging electric cars. The electrical room in mixed use residential commercial buildings must have ’sufficient space’ to accommodate future upgrades to allow all residential parking spaces to have 240v power in the future.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
The city of Seattle is requiring the service load calculation for multi-unit residences to include an allowance for a charging station for each and every parking spot! We don't (yet) have to place a charging station at each parking spot, but we do have to include them, with no demand factor reduction, in the service calc. For the three high rise apartment/condo projects we are presently designing, that has had a huge impact on the service size.
 

jumper

Senior Member
The city of Seattle is requiring the service load calculation for multi-unit residences to include an allowance for a charging station for each and every parking spot! We don't (yet) have to place a charging station at each parking spot, but we do have to include them, with no demand factor reduction, in the service calc. For the three high rise apartment/condo projects we are presently designing, that has had a huge impact on the service size.
I am curious. What number are you using for the calculated load per station?
 

ron

Senior Member
Getting close. 210.17 in the 2014 code addresses what to do if you need one, but it is not required yet.
210.17 Electric Vehicle Branch Circuit
An outlet(s) installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by a separate branch circuit. This circuit shall have no other outlets.

As pointed out, some building codes are being amended. At this point NYC has language for "open parking lots". Building code Section 406.7.11
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
It's already required in CA per the "green code" and all single family dwellings are now required to have a minimum 200 amp service and be "solar ready".
 

chuck-h

New member
I am curious. What number are you using for the calculated load per station?
40 amps 240 unless other info is known. 100% demand factor for first three places. This is in sec 220.57 amendment adopted in Seattle WA.
http://www.seattle.gov/dPd/cs/groups/pan/@pan/documents/web_informational/p2212547.pdf

IMHO the demand factors were decided upon before load-managed EV charging was much recognized (NEC 625.14) and should be reconsidered. Smart charging systems can limit peak demand and still get every car charged overnight.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
40 amps 240 unless other info is known. 100% demand factor for first three places. This is in sec 220.57 amendment adopted in Seattle WA.
http://www.seattle.gov/dPd/cs/groups/pan/@pan/documents/web_informational/p2212547.pdf

IMHO the demand factors were decided upon before load-managed EV charging was much recognized (NEC 625.14) and should be reconsidered. Smart charging systems can limit peak demand and still get every car charged overnight.

Wow, a 3 car garage and you have 120 amps???

BTW Welcome to the forum Chuck-h
 

JDB3

Senior Member
Back in the 80's, an inspector wanted a 200 amp service for a 1400 sq. ft. house that had gas: heat, water heater, range. I told him that the load calculation was under 100 amps. His reply, "what if" they want a pool in back (12 feet from back of house to property line). My reply was, maybe we need a 400 amp service "in-case" they also want a : kiln; welder; hot tub, and ----.:slaphead:
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
The city of Seattle is requiring the service load calculation for multi-unit residences to include an allowance for a charging station for each and every parking spot! We don't (yet) have to place a charging station at each parking spot, but we do have to include them, with no demand factor reduction, in the service calc. For the three high rise apartment/condo projects we are presently designing, that has had a huge impact on the service size.
Yes that would be a huge impact! and with gas at $2.09 a gallon I wonder how EVs are selling...
 

kwired

Electron manager
Back in the 80's, an inspector wanted a 200 amp service for a 1400 sq. ft. house that had gas: heat, water heater, range. I told him that the load calculation was under 100 amps. His reply, "what if" they want a pool in back (12 feet from back of house to property line). My reply was, maybe we need a 400 amp service "in-case" they also want a : kiln; welder; hot tub, and ----.:slaphead:
Should have replied with maybe we need a 4000 amp service in case they add the high rise hotel for their "guest rooms"
 

Fitzdrew516

Senior Member
It's not and never will be required (my opinion) by the NEC due to the NEC's purpose being safety. However, expect energy codes to start adopting standards like this even though the use of electric cars actually pollute more than your standard gasoline car (in lbs of co2 expelled). But I guess as long as people feel better about themselves then it's a win :slaphead:
 

Fitzdrew516

Senior Member
False.

Cheers, Wayne
I don't want to high jack this thread completely, but here's some math for you on The Nissan Leaf.


Lbs of co2 produced by burning 1 gallon of gas = 19.64

Lbs of co2 produced by burning Sub-bituminous coal per kilowatt hour = 2.15

------

Nissan Leaf charger draws 5.2 KW and takes 8 hours to charge. That's 41.6 kWh.

So 41.6 x 2.15 = 89.44 lbs of co2 for a full charge (84 mile range)

A gasoline car getting 35mpg would burn 2.4 gallons of gas to drive 84 miles. Therefore 19.64 x 2.4 = 47.14 lbs of co2 to go 84 miles in a gas powered car.

Stats are from The U.S. Energy Information Administration

So driving a Leaf instead of a car that gets 35 mpg in this circumstance would roughly be twice as bad for the environment. Even if the numbers are off slightly in any area that's not enough to change the point. Even if the two cars put out the same amount of co2 it would never make sense to buy the electric car over the gasoline powered car due to cost. You can replicate this math with any one of the fully electric cars and see the results for yourself, but the technology just isn't there yet.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Lbs of co2 produced by burning 1 gallon of gas = 19.64

Lbs of co2 produced by burning Sub-bituminous coal per kilowatt hour = 2.15
OK

Nissan Leaf charger draws 5.2 KW and takes 8 hours to charge. That's 41.6 kWh.
I wish my Nissan Leaf could hold 41.6 kWh. The 3.6 kW charger takes 8 hours to charge a brand new 24 kWh capacity Nissan Leaf to full from empty, and above 80% the charge rate starts to drop below 3.6 kW.

Simpler math is that a good driver can get 4.0 mi/kWh, and the charger is 90% efficient, so receptacle to wheels the efficiency is about 3.6 mi/kWh. If that kWh came 100% from subbituminous coal that would be 1.67 mi/lb CO2.

So a gas car that gets 33 mpg matches in mi/lb CO2 a Nissan Leaf that is run 100% from subbituminous coal. In reality, no grid is 100% subbituminous coal, that is the worst case for CO2 pollution from electricity.

The upshot is that almost always the Nissan Leaf will pollute less CO2 per mile than a gasoline car. Of course, we have neglected several things, like the CO2 emissions from drilling for oil and refining the gasoline, and the CO2 emissions from mining and transporting coal, and transmission losses.

In any event, electric vehicles make it much easier to displace the CO2 pollution from driving by switching to a low carbon electricity source. Coal is on the way out.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Fitzdrew516

Senior Member
OK


I wish my Nissan Leaf could hold 41.6 kWh. The 3.6 kW charger takes 8 hours to charge a brand new 24 kWh capacity Nissan Leaf to full from empty, and above 80% the charge rate starts to drop below 3.6 kW.

Simpler math is that a good driver can get 4.0 mi/kWh, and the charger is 90% efficient, so receptacle to wheels the efficiency is about 3.6 mi/kWh. If that kWh came 100% from subbituminous coal that would be 1.67 mi/lb CO2.

So a gas car that gets 33 mpg matches in mi/lb CO2 a Nissan Leaf that is run 100% from subbituminous coal. In reality, no grid is 100% subbituminous coal, that is the worst case for CO2 pollution from electricity.

The upshot is that almost always the Nissan Leaf will pollute less CO2 per mile than a gasoline car. Of course, we have neglected several things, like the CO2 emissions from drilling for oil and refining the gasoline, and the CO2 emissions from mining and transporting coal, and transmission losses.

In any event, electric vehicles make it much easier to displace the CO2 pollution from driving by switching to a low carbon electricity source. Coal is on the way out.

Cheers, Wayne
It's not about what the battery holds it's about the power you use. Also - I'm not following where your 4 miles per kwh are coming from. Regardless the 90% efficiency of the charger has nothing to do with the co2 produced for the generation of the power. And I was using Subbituminous as a middle of the road. If you change the numbers to bituminous you use 2.07 lbs per kwh instead of 2.15. Not much difference really.

Even if your example were correct let's use your numbers -
The 3.6KW charger has a 5.2KW max power draw too so weening off the charge during the last 20% of charging is irrelevant.

Let's just say it draws the 3.6kw for 6 hours for a full charge (when really it takes longer than that) that's to charge the 24kwh capacity battery.

You say that you can go 3.6 miles per kwh which works out to about what the EPA claims for that battery (84 miles of range).

So 3.6kwh * 6 hours gives you 21.6 kwh per charge (you can see I'm pandering toward your bias considering the battery holds 24kwh)

--------------

So that means the Leaf would expel 44.7 lbs of co2 if we were using those numbers (and they're inaccurate numbers) to go 84 miles.

The 35 mpg car still expels 47.2 lbs of co2 to go 84 miles.

So roughly the same amount of co2 into the environment in this example.

So with that being said even if these numbers were correct I'll buy a Honda Fit for half the price of a Nissan Leaf 100% of the time.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=74&t=11
 
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