Electric Doors

[steve66]

We have a standard detail for the wiring of electric doors that shows the door operator connected to the fire alarm system. Why is that necessary? Do the doors actually open and stay open when the fire alarm goes off? The doors I am thinking about are in hospitals, doctors suites, and surgery centers. Some are for ease of someone pushing a patient on a cart or in a wheelchair. Some even separate a sterile operating room corridors from public corridors.

This seems even stranger since other doors on magnetic holder close when the fire alarm goes off.

Steve

 

[ron]

Re: Electric Doors

Fire rated doors (and in some jurisdictions smoke doors) only work when the door is closed. During a fire alarm, the magnetic door holder release to allow the door to do its job properly. The door holder is to make the traffic flow better during a regular day.
Also, fire alarm systems are arranged to interconnect with a access control system to unlock (in the case of a fire rated door, not unlatch) the doors for easy access by emergency personnel.

 

[steve66]

Re: Electric Doors

Thanks for the reply Ron, but the doors I am wondering about are the kind that are normally closed. When someone pushes the paddle (button), the door opens for several seconds (long enough for someone to push a wheelchair or cart through). The doors don't lock, and they can always be pushed open.

Someone on another code forum stated that a fire alarm would disable the door to prevent the passage of smoke and fire. But the doors are self closing anyway, and this would make it difficult (or impossible)for someone in a wheelchair to get out.

Any other thoughts?

 

[charlie b]

Re: Electric Doors

Originally posted by steve66: Thanks for the reply Ron, but the doors I am wondering about are the kind that are normally closed.

I agree with Ron. The key words in your statement are ?normally closed.? In this context, ?normal? is a choice of the owner or building manager. The fire code will require that certain doors be closed during a fire event, in order to maintain the desired barriers. The fire alarm system is wired to the devices that Ron described, so that, if by chance the door is held open (i.e., by the magnetic latch) at the moment that the fire alarm occurs, the magnetic latch will release the door, and the springs will cause the door to close. The requirement that the door have this feature has nothing to do with the possibility that the building manager chooses to keep this particular door closed as a matter of normal daily use.

 

[roger]

Re: Electric Doors

Steve, the doors you are addressing become standard Panic Bar opperated doors in an event. The electrically held up strikes or latches (floor and jamb) deactivate (doors are no longer automatic) and become manual doors, they remain closed as in normal use: suite or zone seperation.

Roger

[ September 02, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[steve66]

Re: Electric Doors

Charlie b:
I'm not sure it makes any difference, but the door's I am talking about don't have any magnetic holders. They are required to be closed to maintain a separation between a public corridor and a sterile corridor.

However, you all seem to be agreeing with Roger that the tie in to the fire alarm is to keep the doors shut and/or turn off the automatic operator. I am still concerned that this makes it difficult for a handicapped person to get out of the building, but I guess preventing the spead of smoke or fire takes priority.

Thanks for all the input.
Steve

 

[plechtenberg]

Re: Electric Doors

In a Hospital, Surgery Suite, etc. if these doors are for building egress, the fire alarm system CANNOT disable them. They are required not only to be operational but are to be supplied by the emergency generator per NFPA 99

4.4.2.2.2 Emergency System.

4.4.2.2.2.2 Life Safety Branch. The life safety branch of the emergency system shall supply power for the following lighting, receptacles, and equipment:

(7) Automatically operated doors used for building egress

 

[caj1962]

Re: Electric Doors

I agree with plech's post about the EGRESS doors in a hospital not being disabled when the fire alarm goes off. I also agree with the posts that state about the fire alarm conection disables the automatic LOCKING features that are installed on some of these doors. If that option is not installed (hold opens or electric strike) then the doors would not have to tied into the fire alarm sytem. (heavy emphasis on the cussing part) at great length the instalation of these same type of door locks and electric strikes in a secured/phyc unit. Would we have to tie these into the fire alarm so that when the fire alarm goes off the doors unlock and the people in these areas can now walk away? My take on the codes is if the area is staffed 24/7 and they can evacuate if that area is on fire then they don't have to. With an adressable fire alarm system that we have we can make it so that if a dector in that area goes off then the doors unlock, but that doesn't seem right either.
Help me out.

 

[roger]

Re: Electric Doors

Plechtenberg, the NFPA 99 articles you reference are only concerned in auto egress doors being served by the Life Safety Branch, please quote a code article (any code) that describes or mandates what you say.

the fire alarm system CANNOT disable them.

You may want to read NFPA 101 7.2 and 19.2.

Caj, even in a Psychiatric area a "fail safe" system would have to be in place. This may require an "area of refuge" for a given period of time. I wouldn't think these people should be jepordized by "human mistakes" in this type of event.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Electric Doors

I have worked on the locks at the Alzheimer's section of an assisted care facility.

There the Fire alarm would open all locks, these where all fail open type locks. (magnets)

At that point they where as free as the rest of the patients, of coarse the "area of refuge" might be needed if this was at a "forced" treatment facility.

 

[ceb]

Re: Electric Doors

I work for the prison systeem in N.C. what the standard is for our older units that have no sprinkler systems only fire alarms is the dorm doors in side are locked at night but the area is maned 24/7 with some one with the keys, there are fire doors on each end of the buildings that are locked from the outside but another person that is assighned to "yard duty" has that key and can respond to and open that door

 

[goldstar]

Re: Electric Doors

Steve,

The doors you are referring to should not be connected to the fire alarm system. The electric opening devices ARE designed to allow wheelchair paitients ease of egress from a given area and those of us that are lucky enough to walk can open the door without using these opening devices. The only argument would be if there were a smoke condition on one side of the door and a wheelchair patient hit the strike plate and opened the door.....that door would stay opened for a predesignated amount of time and allow smoke to enter a smoke-free area. If that were the concern you could interface specifically identified smoke detectors (and only those detectors) on either side of that door to disable the opening device in the event of a smoke condition in that area.

Magnetically held (open or closed) doors connected to fire alarm systems are designed to close from an open position to "compartmentize" or contain smoke conditions and unlock from a normally closed position to allow paths of egress. In addition, these "egress" doors should be "fail-safe" and not "fail-secure" (irrespective of whether they are manned 24/7).

If you want an "in depth" explaination and NFPA code referrals I would suggest you go to the AFAA website and join in their discussion group. They have hundreds of participants (as we do) that are extremely knowledgable about fire alarm systems and they will point you in the right direction.

Regards,

Phil

[ September 04, 2003, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: goldstar ]

 

[plechtenberg]

Re: Electric Doors

Roger,
You are correct, there is nothing that specifically states you CANNOT disable them but there is nothing that requires you to disable them either. It appears it is a design issue, not a code issue. I was thinking of the minimum opening force requirement in NFPA 101, which is why we don?t disable them with the fire alarm system.

Pat

 

[steve66]

Re: Electric Doors

Thanks for all the replies, but I am thourghly confused

I know it was more of a NFPA72 question than a NEC question so I may call our fire alarm contractor and ask them when I get a chance. I'll let everyone know what I find out.

 

[jrdsg]

Re: Electric Doors

to add a wrinkle...

while fire egress is the uppermost concern in the posts above, it is notable that ahj concerns in many jurisdictions extend to other kinds of egress, eg. flight from an attacker.

also, local ahj's often have regulations that exceed the NFPA specifications. illuminated green exit buttons for example...

there are also aggregate delay considerations when laying out egress routes.

it frightens me to see the life-safety violations i encounter everyday on site visits: illegally locked exit routes, property stored in fire exit corridors and stairwells, etc.

 

[hbendillo]

Re: Electric Doors

I think there is an answer for Steve in there somewhere, but most did not answer the question directly. Steve was only referring to the doors that have push pads on each side of the doors that activate an operator that opens them momentarily to allow passage without having to manually push the doors open. They then close until the next time the a push pad is operated. These are very common in hospitals for people that are pushing wheel chairs and stretchers through the corridors. They have nothing to do with the fire doors with magnetic hold opens. However, these doors could be fire rated doors. I would not think the purpose for connecting the door operators to the fire alarm system would be to open the doors. Rather, probably someone wanted to make sure that the doors remained closed in case some of them were fire doors. Not sure that this is necessary but it may be some local code rule.

 

[kajungee]

Re: Electric Doors

Not trying to throw a another curve ball in this thread, but we just finished a hotel which had an atrium area, which the fire marshal required a smoke evacuation system be installed, the engineer then added 4- 15 HP ehaust fans on the roof and had us tie in the normal electric slide doors into the fire alarm system whereby activation of the fire alarm system actived the ceiling exhaust fans and opened all exterior doors to allow fresh air intake. Make sense , but I also wonder about sending fresh air onto a possible fire ?

 

[steve66]

Re: Electric Doors

hbendillo:

Yes, you are correct about my question and the answers. I still plan on calling the fire alarm people sometimes.

kajungee:

Yes, we had to do the smoke fan things also, but we wern't required to make the doors open. I am wondering how hard it will be to push those doors open aginst the fans trying to suck them in. I was also concerned about the fresh air to the fire effect. I think we had to place switches for the fire dept. to turn the fans on with. Do you think the ceiling tiles will go flying when the fans turn on?

Steve