Electrical apprenticeships:

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Tony S

Tony S

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Resting under the Major Oak UK
Electrical apprenticeships

The UK has moved away from indentured apprenticeships to what is termed a “modern apprenticeship”. Instead of being bound to a single employer the apprentice can move about taking his portfolio of work with him.
College studies still form the backbone of the system.

Where this seems to be falling down in my mind is manufacturing industry is now falling by the wayside in favour of domestic work. We’re getting desperately short of industrial electricians.

I was an indentured apprentice in the chemical industry, bound to the company for four years.

Indentures are a two way thing. You agree to study and work diligently to the benefit of the company, the company undertakes to give you every assistance in your attainment of craftsman status.


I was wondering how your system works in training new electricians. We’re all getting older, someone has to fill our shoes and carry on.


This shows a just small portion of my indentures:
09A_zps2bjjqy7w.jpg
 
Here in the US each state sets it's own rules. For the most part apprentices can move from one employer to another at the drop of a hat if they choose.

Electrical Unions have a system that I know nothing about.

A lot of us get licensed with no formal schoolin'; I did.
 
ActionDave said:
Here in the US each state sets it's own rules. For the most part apprentices can move from one employer to another at the drop of a hat if they choose.

Electrical Unions have a system that I know nothing about.

A lot of us get licensed with no formal schoolin'; I did.
Click to expand...

state indentured apprenticeship is what happens on the left coast.
you are indentured to a specific local union, who directs who you
are dispatched to, and how long you stay there.

after you reach journeyman status, you are free to be unemployed
anywhere you choose.:(
 
There is a form of indenturedness in CO. You can get a Residential Wireman's license after two years on the job. You also get a raise and can work on your own, run work, and even have 1.75 helpers under you.

And then, as any twenty five year old with a license and raise would do, you spend a lot of that money.

And then ten years go by and you want to move up and get your Journeyman's. To do that you need at least two years of commercial hours. BUT the company you work for says, "No way. There is too much resi work to be done and I'm paying you too much to go and learn commercial. Besides if you get Journeyman's I'm going to have to give you another raise." (they don't really say the part about the raise out loud).

So then you either quit and go to work for less money at another outfit to get your commercial hours or hold out waiting for some one on the commercial crews to start screaming for help loud enough that you get sent there an get your foot in the door.

I lucked out, fell in with a small, but amazingly great shop and avoided the Resi Wireman pitfall.
 
Here in MA the state mandated minimum requirements are the same union or non- union.

Required 600 hrs school time, 8,000 hours on the job and of course we are free to change employers at will. Union guys might have additional requirements as part of the agreement they make with the union.
 
Tony S said:
Indentures are a two way thing. You agree to study and work diligently to the benefit of the company, the company undertakes to give you every assistance in your attainment of craftsman status.
Click to expand...

Personally i would have loved such an agreement Tony

My state has, like many, an apprenticeship registration program & supporting state officials.

However, it is an option. In fact few employers will 'sponsor' a registered state apprentice , simply because they do not want to follow the state apprenticeship rules, regs, & rates of pay

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
Personally i would have loved such an agreement Tony

My state has, like many, an apprenticeship registration program & supporting state officials.

However, it is an option. In fact few employers will 'sponsor' a registered state apprentice , simply because they do not want to follow the state apprenticeship rules, regs, & rates of pay

~RJ~
Click to expand...

It's the ying and the yang.

Don't people like and move to VT specifically because it is less regimented and allows greater freedoms than say MA, or CT?

Can't have it both ways can you?
 
When I served my time the government gave grants towards training apprentices. I’d been qualified for two years when a change in government and the grants stopped. The inevitable consequence was companies stopping indentured apprenticeships. There followed several years of no new blood coming in to the trade. The old hands were still retiring so there was a shortfall.

Enter the modern apprenticeship, for the industrial world things didn’t improve as it was easier to train domestic electricians. The government were crowing that we had more electricians. I was looking to take on electricians for our foundry, I now know what despair feels like.

Some companies have seen the light and are taking on apprentices knowing they have to replace the retirees.
 
Tony S said:
When I served my time the government gave grants towards training apprentices. I’d been qualified for two years when a change in government and the grants stopped. The inevitable consequence was companies stopping indentured apprenticeships. There followed several years of no new blood coming in to the trade. The old hands were still retiring so there was a shortfall.

Enter the modern apprenticeship, for the industrial world things didn’t improve as it was easier to train domestic electricians. The government were crowing that we had more electricians. I was looking to take on electricians for our foundry, I now know what despair feels like.

Some companies have seen the light and are taking on apprentices knowing they have to replace the retirees.
Click to expand...

my work of late takes me a lot of different places, seeing a lot of people
working as "journeyman electricians". it's not reassuring, as there has been
over the years, a pretty severe decline in the capabilities of people entering
the field.

but, it's not just electrical work. craftsmen period have been in decline as
the definition of what a good line of work to be in has changed. i just see
it in this field, as it's where i hung out my shingle.

something as simple as wiring up premises lighting, using the new controls,
is neigh on impossible for some folks to implement. just the simple wiring,
not the commissioning and setup.

i think i'm going to my wholesale house today, and pick up one of every
module that nLight sells, and go off to the bench, and play with them.
i worked with a one man band who does almost only nLight system commissioning,
and he's making about $2k a day, and has more work than he knows what to do with.

my apprenticeship is still continuing. it's been 38 years. i'll get it right any day now.
 
Fulthrotl said:
my work of late takes me a lot of different places, seeing a lot of people
working as "journeyman electricians". it's not reassuring, as there has been
over the years, a pretty severe decline in the capabilities of people entering
the field.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about the people "entering" the field, but I have found the exact opposite to be the case for people in the field.

twenty or thirty years ago if I gave a typical schematic of how a control system should be hooked up, there was close to a zero chance of it being done correctly. these days, it is not unusual for there to be zero mistakes, or at least the mistakes were found and fixed before I got there.

try to find a field electrician 20 years ago who was able to deal effectively with a PLC or a VFD and make minor setup and programming changes. Just did not exist for the most part. now it is routine.

as far as I am concerned, the typical field electrician has improved pretty dramatically, at least the ones I deal with.

it is not unusual these days for me to not even have to go out to start up equipment. the electricians are often able to do it on their own.
 
Fulthrotl said:
i think i'm going to my wholesale house today, and pick up one of every
module that nLight sells, ...he's making about $2k a day, and has more work than he knows what to do with.
...
Click to expand...


Fulthrotl - .... . Is this because of the CA Lighting Codes ? Lots of commercial use ?

I am retired ... may just unretire myself .

In the old days , I was going to concentrate on the whole house controls ... same principal . Lots of Wealthy Clients $$$ .



Don
 
Last edited by a moderator:
the lead lag of the market....

the lead lag of the market....

Tony S said:
When I served my time the government gave grants towards training apprentices. I’d been qualified for two years when a change in government and the grants stopped. The inevitable consequence was companies stopping indentured apprenticeships. There followed several years of no new blood coming in to the trade. The old hands were still retiring so there was a shortfall.

Enter the modern apprenticeship, for the industrial world things didn’t improve as it was easier to train domestic electricians. The government were crowing that we had more electricians. I was looking to take on electricians for our foundry, I now know what despair feels like.

Some companies have seen the light and are taking on apprentices knowing they have to replace the retirees.
Click to expand...


Having suffered a serious housing crunch in '08, apprentices were the first to go.

Less enrollment , as well as increased dropouts followed suit.

The average age of a license holder went up.

Our Fed government responded with a number of work related trainee programs

We're on the upswing, according to our fedreal bureau of statistical propaganda :)

According to them , we should be seeing more employment ads any day now.......

~RJ~
 
petersonra said:
I don't know much about the people "entering" the field, but I have found the exact opposite to be the case for people in the field.

twenty or thirty years ago if I gave a typical schematic of how a control system should be hooked up, there was close to a zero chance of it being done correctly. these days, it is not unusual for there to be zero mistakes, or at least the mistakes were found and fixed before I got there.

try to find a field electrician 20 years ago who was able to deal effectively with a PLC or a VFD and make minor setup and programming changes. Just did not exist for the most part. now it is routine.

as far as I am concerned, the typical field electrician has improved pretty dramatically, at least the ones I deal with.

it is not unusual these days for me to not even have to go out to start up equipment. the electricians are often able to do it on their own.
Click to expand...

I was I my mid 40’s when started Modicon PLC programming. I’d worked on PLC’s before faultfinding etc, programming was a whole new ball game. I had to learn flying by the seat of my pants as the company wouldn’t pay for formal training. Later it was the same for PL7 and Mitsubishi.

I wouldn’t recommend it as learning method but it worked for me.
 
Here in WA state, it is 4000 hrs as a trainee (under ANY licensed electrician or company or combinations thereof anywhere in state) plus 96 hours classroom. Trainee's need to keep a log of hours signed by licensed electrician. Reciprocity with other states and military electrician work counts.

Owners can do their own electrical work (or plumbing, except some septic) without licenses, but need to pass same inspections.

Up until 2001 you could get a senior exemption (e.g if you wired your own house before 1974 or so you could get the 'grandfather' license. 40 hours or so update classes every couple of years (forget the exact number) to renew license. 99% of 'education' is simply keeping up with code changes, quite a racket IMO.

Like someone else said, after that your have your choice of where to be unemployed ?
 
That sounds like our NVQ (national vocational qualification) where the apprentice has to provide evidence of work done. This work has to be signed off by a qualified electrician, finally it goes for evaluation by the examining body. There is still the college study needed to gain a C&G (city and guilds) qualification.

Both are long after I qualified ;-)
 
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