Electrical Change Orders

N

Npstewart

Senior Member
Im looking to gain some insight on Electrical change orders from any estimators, if possible.

Im occasionally asked to review electrical change orders but specially the ones over the past few years have been absurd. Seemingly, many companies have transitioned to use a computerized / automated estimating software which is tracking and charging for every strap, screw, bushing, ground screw, even the pull string. Everything is itemized and provided with the material cost + the hours it takes.

As an example, the change order im looking at now is to install a camera 50 feet away, amongst other things. Then it line items "Yellow Pull string" and it says total labor is 0.5 hours to install the pull string which seemingly means it takes 30 mins for the pull string to get vacuumed through the conduit.

More absurdly, they're even charging for "BOTTLED WATER, ICE, VEHICLE, CELL PHONE" (See attached).

Question:
I dont know what my question is but as an estimator, does anyone look at these estimates to do a "sanity check" when they're done?

Any suggestions from seasoned estimators for reviewing and pushing back on these itemized change orders when they're itemized down to the last screw?

My intent isn't to argue with someone doing their due diligence and rightfully requesting a change order. My intent is to push back on non-experienced estimators that have no actual field experience and are estimating as their first job without oversight.
 

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I have seen project specs that required those types of detail on change orders, because they specified that you could not include the general overhead costs on your change order labor hours. For those types, in addition to the expenses shown in your post there would be a lot more including office expenses, and supervision labor costs.

The labor is typically taken from a labor hour manual, but the pull string installation includes a lot more than the time to actually move the string through the raceway. Typically there would be two electricians, one at each end. You have to account for the time to bring the vacuum and string to the area where it is needed and to return it to the storage area when finished. You may need to account for ladders or other elevated work means, and there could be many other things.
 
I am an estimator and no, it isn't ridiculous. Specifiers get what they ask for. The typical contract today, limits overhead and profit to 10% total. It would be insane to bid a job with 10% overhead and profit. Labor alone often runs up to 10% over. In many cases, change orders have been kicked back because we can't have a line item for miscellaneous material. I charge estimator time, project manager time, material handling time, and anything I can. With a few graft type exceptions, it is no possible to charge too much for a small <$3,000 change order. The work that goes in to it. The time spent over making sure it is done right and incorporated, keeping track of as-builts processing billing extra material orders, and the most important thing is the drag on brain power for the foreman, superintendent and Project Manager because it is an interruption to the flow of work. These can't be quantified. Give me a job that is properly drawn, properly estimated and properly run any day.
 
Change orders are where profits come from. Many job bids are at-cost (or less).

I've seen string pulls take a lot more than 30 man-minutes (there's at least 2 people present), but for 50' there's always a tape, sure. Still, any task switch takes at least 5min(x2), depends on efficiency of crew. Maybe the bucket's on someone else's cart 3 floors away hiding in a back room... The old "who has the X" "Rob" .... "Rob, you got the X?" "Steve took it" ..... "Steve, got the X?" "John has it" .... "John?" "Rob took it".
 
Change orders are where profits come from. Many job bids are at-cost (or less).
Click to expand...

This is a misnomer....nobody does this intentionally unless you're bidding the worst GC's that knowingly take the low number just to win the bid. Then he shops that to his favorite EC. GC's look really bad to the owners and they blame you for making them look bad.
Every job I accepted to bid, I was in a group pf 4-6 EC's that have done work for years with this GC and the required detailed scope letters 2 days before the bid. The day before the GC would go over my scope with me and question every detail. On bid day if one of the EC's looked out of whack high or low they would get a call and be given the opportunity to correct it, or they would throw it out.
They nip that in the bud before the job is awarded.
 
Where I used to work it was common for the high and low bids to be thrown out and the end user would then negotiate with the remaining bidders.

There were projects we did not want so would bid high. If you didn't bid, there was a chance you would not be invited to bid on the next project.
 
In my opinion, this is the fault of the Project Owners and/or their representatives.

These bid packages want every single phase and material line itemized, and the fact of life is, the parts are more than the whole. Just like an automobile.

And then there is the “10% OH/10%profit” garbage. Who do these morons think they are telling me what my OH is? They don’t run my business, I’ll charge what I need to stay in business.

So what happens is we end up burying all out costs somewhere else, which is ironic, because the owners think this is giving them a fair comparison by having everything itemized. It’s not. It’s driving prices up, not down, and obfuscating the process.

I looked at one the other day where they want demo of drywall on a line item, per SF, and demo of metal studs, per Lin ft, on a separate line item.

I just get a SawZall and cut the dang wall into pieces and carry it out. And I certainly don’t have a SF drywall demo number. I look at the little office remodel, there’s one wall to be removed, I figure me and my helper will take about 2 hours. And during that time I’ll pull out the electrical, and plan the next thing I’m going to do.

But if you want it line itemed, it’s going to be more expensive. Just the time to come up with such an asinine figure is going to cost money.

And if I have to do this all the time, you better believe I’m coming up with a program to spit out worthless numbers.
 
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