I am faced with the dilemma of having to design electrical systems before I bid them as of late. A particular General Contractor habitually requests bids from my organization with obscure or no architectural drawings. I am spending entirely too much time in the office figuring feeder size, transformer size, load calculations, circuit design, one line diagrams and panel schedules. Every time I bid a job for this contractor, I end up having to supply the City with the needed drawings in order to obtain permits. This is the job of an engineer, but this contractor continually calls on me to perform this service and the City has allowed me to submit these drawings with out being a certified MEP. I am Ok with this, it just takes up so much of my time. I have an apprentice that I am trying to bring up in the business to replace me when I am gone or rooster out of this business. I would like to have some opinions on some of the Electrical Design Software out on the market before I commit to purchasing software that would also be a training tool for him also. I am looking for something that will do as much as possible i.e.. load calculations, wire sizing, power factor, panel schedules, load analysis and so on and so forth. Any Suggestions?
Electrical Design Software - Any sugestions
- Thread starter Talmadge
- Start date
- Status
Putting aside my shock at not needing an engineering seal on plan approval...
I've used MircroStation for the past 8 years as a CAD system. Any CAD system is going to have a learning curve. Younger people pick it up faster.
I wouldn't rely on any software for sizing feeders and transformers. Too many assumptions go into this.
For load calculations we've used Excel. Created our own panelboard schedule where we just type in the load description and volt-amps. It sums everything up. And sub-panel loads get linked to distribution panels.
The One-Line diagram can get drawn on any CAD system but there's nothing to help you create it. How the system gets tied together has to come from your mind.
I've used MircroStation for the past 8 years as a CAD system. Any CAD system is going to have a learning curve. Younger people pick it up faster.
I wouldn't rely on any software for sizing feeders and transformers. Too many assumptions go into this.
For load calculations we've used Excel. Created our own panelboard schedule where we just type in the load description and volt-amps. It sums everything up. And sub-panel loads get linked to distribution panels.
The One-Line diagram can get drawn on any CAD system but there's nothing to help you create it. How the system gets tied together has to come from your mind.
Hi,
I use Volts as it is more powerful and easier to use and much faster than any other design software that I have seen. Modeling does not require drawing cute one lines and it will automatically produce all of the reports that you mentioned and a lot more and is both NEC and IEEE compliant. With its basic version selling for only $700 I'd add it to your list of programs to look at.
http://www.dolphins-software.com
I use Volts as it is more powerful and easier to use and much faster than any other design software that I have seen. Modeling does not require drawing cute one lines and it will automatically produce all of the reports that you mentioned and a lot more and is both NEC and IEEE compliant. With its basic version selling for only $700 I'd add it to your list of programs to look at.
http://www.dolphins-software.com
kingpb
Senior Member
- Location
- SE USA as far as you can go
- Occupation
- Engineer, Registered
In most locations, permits will be granted to electrical contractors that self perform the work they design, i.e. a engineer seal is not required. With that said it does not mean the EC can provide inferior documentation. it also means you must have a contract in place for the work prior to doing the work, since the GC cannot take your design and use it for someone else to build, that would require and engineer seal.
What I surmise is that the GC is taking advantage of the situation and getting free design work, if you are not including this in your fee to him. There is no reason you should not be paid for this work, just as an engineer would get paid. What you charge (or how you charge him) will have to be up to you, but certainly you shouldn't be doing it for free.
I have seen the Volts software and it seems fairly comprehensive although I personally have not used it and therefore am not in a position to make a recommendation. But like all things tools are only as good as the person using them. Even with the software, your time needs to be compensated.
What I surmise is that the GC is taking advantage of the situation and getting free design work, if you are not including this in your fee to him. There is no reason you should not be paid for this work, just as an engineer would get paid. What you charge (or how you charge him) will have to be up to you, but certainly you shouldn't be doing it for free.
I have seen the Volts software and it seems fairly comprehensive although I personally have not used it and therefore am not in a position to make a recommendation. But like all things tools are only as good as the person using them. Even with the software, your time needs to be compensated.
kingpb said:
Not true in Indiana for sure. Maybe elsewhere. Depends on what you are doing in/to the building, if there will be memberx of the public in the building and if anyone who is an employee will be in the building and/or a whole host of other "rules" (actually General Administrative Rules).
Best thing to do is develop a relationship with a PE who can design, draw, stamp and submit your project.
Where are you located?
kingpb
Senior Member
- Location
- SE USA as far as you can go
- Occupation
- Engineer, Registered
Interesting, I wonder if that is because EC's are not regulated at the state level, and therefore design work must be sealed.
I find it hard to believe though that, for example, and EC goes to put in a new parking lot light, and the Owner wants a permit pulled, that the EC will have to get an engineer involved. There must be some limit, or something?
I find it hard to believe though that, for example, and EC goes to put in a new parking lot light, and the Owner wants a permit pulled, that the EC will have to get an engineer involved. There must be some limit, or something?
kingpb said:
There are limits, at least in my state of Indiana.
Some work does not require a state design release, like your lot lighting. Parking lots are not a "Class 1 Structure".
Some work requires a design release but does not require the plans to be stamped by a "design professional" (architect or engineer).
Some work requires a design release and must be stamped by a design professional.
You can see Indiana's requirements here:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T06750/A00120.PDF
Expand Article 12 then Rule 6 and read all about it.
I can only assume other states are similar, but they may not be.
the national electrical code
the national electrical code
Why the national electrical code for dwelling units don't apply the continuous and non continuous load to calculate the over load protection device and cable selection calculation, correction factors for temperature
The national electrical code discuses about the motor-compressor, motor-compressor largest load, protective device, and no discussion about air handling units, chillers
the national electrical code discuses the method of calculating the demand load one panel board the question if I have panel (A) and (B), (C), (D), each of them contain lighting , motors and sockets loads and appliances and air conditions how I cane calculate the demand load for the main panel MDB-1 that feed all this panel boards and the main feeder, main circuit breaker and calculate the demand load of panel board MDB that feed the (MDB-1), (MDB-2), (MDB-3), (MDB-4) ,main feeder, main circuit breaker where (MDB-2), (MDB-3), (MDB-4) same as MDB-1 but different in loads not typical and, also calculation transformer load.
The national electrical code discuses the demand loads of central space heating only for optional method for dwelling units what about the general method for dwelling units and the non-dwelling units.
the national electrical code
Why the national electrical code for dwelling units don't apply the continuous and non continuous load to calculate the over load protection device and cable selection calculation, correction factors for temperature
The national electrical code discuses about the motor-compressor, motor-compressor largest load, protective device, and no discussion about air handling units, chillers
the national electrical code discuses the method of calculating the demand load one panel board the question if I have panel (A) and (B), (C), (D), each of them contain lighting , motors and sockets loads and appliances and air conditions how I cane calculate the demand load for the main panel MDB-1 that feed all this panel boards and the main feeder, main circuit breaker and calculate the demand load of panel board MDB that feed the (MDB-1), (MDB-2), (MDB-3), (MDB-4) ,main feeder, main circuit breaker where (MDB-2), (MDB-3), (MDB-4) same as MDB-1 but different in loads not typical and, also calculation transformer load.
The national electrical code discuses the demand loads of central space heating only for optional method for dwelling units what about the general method for dwelling units and the non-dwelling units.
D
Dickieboy
Guest
I have been on the design side of the fence for 44 yers and what Mr.Bill siad is very
I have been on the design side of the fence for 44 yers and what Mr.Bill siad is very
I have been on the design side of the fence for 44 years and what Mr.Bill said is very factual and I know no other way. There are lots of tools out there but you still have to plug in the numbers to get the answers.Once you have your skeletons created then you can save them off as your format and just call them back up but you have to build your library first.,as jobs progress and close out then this info all can be saved and can easily be modified for the next go around.
dick
I have been on the design side of the fence for 44 yers and what Mr.Bill siad is very
I have been on the design side of the fence for 44 years and what Mr.Bill said is very factual and I know no other way. There are lots of tools out there but you still have to plug in the numbers to get the answers.Once you have your skeletons created then you can save them off as your format and just call them back up but you have to build your library first.,as jobs progress and close out then this info all can be saved and can easily be modified for the next go around.
dick
Electrical Design Software - Any sugestions
Thanks for the input, guys! I'll explore the titles suggested. I agree with Mr. Bill that you can't depend on software to design any custom job, that it can only give general suggestions as to wire size and conduit fill and so on... I would never totally trust a design by a computer or an engineer for that matter. I have found minor and major mistakes in plans in the past. I normally figure things as we go when installing from a set of plans because it is my responsibility to catch mistakes, says so in the plan notes! I was looking for something to build a library of plans as Dick suggested that I can borrow from and modify to suit the installation. I think it would be a great learning tool for my apprentice.
Bbaumer from Virginia asked where I was located. I work mainly in the Houston Metropolitan Area (Texas). The City of Houston is pretty strict concerning plans and having them stamped by an engineer. This particular project is in a suburb of Houston and they have a pretty small permitting department.
As for giving away design services, my time is precious to me. I charge my customer for design work, I normally bury the charge in my estimate. I have a real good relationship with this GC that has lasted for 8 years thus far, we have never had any problems on any job, he has never cut an invoice, we have never been cross with one another and he pays his bills in a timely manner. I just wish he could keep me busy year round. Periodically he will invite a competitor to bid that same job to gage me and my prices. He is never disappointed when the bids arrive. We have a relationship of mutual respect that neither one of us wants to damage. That is why I will go the extra mile for him, because he has earned it.
Thanks for the input, guys! I'll explore the titles suggested. I agree with Mr. Bill that you can't depend on software to design any custom job, that it can only give general suggestions as to wire size and conduit fill and so on... I would never totally trust a design by a computer or an engineer for that matter. I have found minor and major mistakes in plans in the past. I normally figure things as we go when installing from a set of plans because it is my responsibility to catch mistakes, says so in the plan notes! I was looking for something to build a library of plans as Dick suggested that I can borrow from and modify to suit the installation. I think it would be a great learning tool for my apprentice.
Bbaumer from Virginia asked where I was located. I work mainly in the Houston Metropolitan Area (Texas). The City of Houston is pretty strict concerning plans and having them stamped by an engineer. This particular project is in a suburb of Houston and they have a pretty small permitting department.
As for giving away design services, my time is precious to me. I charge my customer for design work, I normally bury the charge in my estimate. I have a real good relationship with this GC that has lasted for 8 years thus far, we have never had any problems on any job, he has never cut an invoice, we have never been cross with one another and he pays his bills in a timely manner. I just wish he could keep me busy year round. Periodically he will invite a competitor to bid that same job to gage me and my prices. He is never disappointed when the bids arrive. We have a relationship of mutual respect that neither one of us wants to damage. That is why I will go the extra mile for him, because he has earned it.
- Status