Electrical estimating book
- Thread starter jro
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bclymer
Member
- Location
- Nichols, NY.
Re: Electrical estimating book
Yes, we all agree about Mike and the work he has done for our industry. His books and all the info that he provides, and this forum. So like you said: "TWO THUMBS UP"
Yes, we all agree about Mike and the work he has done for our industry. His books and all the info that he provides, and this forum. So like you said: "TWO THUMBS UP"
Re: Electrical estimating book
I was wandering about the homerun measurments in this book Page45 E-13 Circuit A-22 shows on the page to be 52', if I use a ruler and scale off the same route and add for drops at the panel and receptacle , I come up with 46.5', using the table for drops at the panel and recptacle.. am I doing something wrong.
Any help would be appreciated.
Walter
I was wandering about the homerun measurments in this book Page45 E-13 Circuit A-22 shows on the page to be 52', if I use a ruler and scale off the same route and add for drops at the panel and receptacle , I come up with 46.5', using the table for drops at the panel and recptacle.. am I doing something wrong.
Any help would be appreciated.
Walter
Re: Electrical estimating book
I see what you are saying, I came up with 45', I measured 29' from panel to receptacle dotted line shown only, 6' from cieling to panel, 10' from ceiling to bath receptacle, but then again the prints don't give a height for the bath receptacle.
Perhaps we should E-Mail Mike Holt.
I see what you are saying, I came up with 45', I measured 29' from panel to receptacle dotted line shown only, 6' from cieling to panel, 10' from ceiling to bath receptacle, but then again the prints don't give a height for the bath receptacle.
Perhaps we should E-Mail Mike Holt.Re: Electrical estimating book
Thanks for the response JRO. that is very odd . I was wandering about this, because i jhave measured others and have come up with different lenghts. I am trying to learn this Estimating, and am having a hard time with it. I will send Mike Holt a message and will post my answer as soon as I get one. again thanks
Thanks for the response JRO. that is very odd . I was wandering about this, because i jhave measured others and have come up with different lenghts. I am trying to learn this Estimating, and am having a hard time with it. I will send Mike Holt a message and will post my answer as soon as I get one. again thanks
derick hoffpauir
Member
Re: Electrical estimating book
I do not own the estimating book but I have purchased a few of Mike Holt's other books. I have found several problems in the examples. The fact checkers do not do a very good job.
I do not own the estimating book but I have purchased a few of Mike Holt's other books. I have found several problems in the examples. The fact checkers do not do a very good job.
Re: Electrical estimating book
Holy Toledo, wmeek. A 5.500' discrepancy. Surely the road to financial ruination.
When pulling wires, a certain amount is ruined in making up the head. In running conduit, a certain amount is lost to cutting. Very seldom do conduit runs result in exact multiples of 10'.
Of course, with an endless supply of couplings, it is possible to make full use of all your scrap.
~Peter
Holy Toledo, wmeek. A 5.500' discrepancy. Surely the road to financial ruination.
When pulling wires, a certain amount is ruined in making up the head. In running conduit, a certain amount is lost to cutting. Very seldom do conduit runs result in exact multiples of 10'.
Of course, with an endless supply of couplings, it is possible to make full use of all your scrap.
~Peter
Re: Electrical estimating book
Hey peter
I was trying to see if there was something i was missing in the estimating process. I under stand there is loss of wire in making a head and pulling in conduit.We are talking about romex in this situation. I have measured other circuits as well and come up with different lengths. I am trying to see if there was another factor that I was missing. If you do not understand a process of estimating you could be in a big surprise at the end of the job.I am trying to learn estimating. If you have ant thing that would help, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Hey peter
I was trying to see if there was something i was missing in the estimating process. I under stand there is loss of wire in making a head and pulling in conduit.We are talking about romex in this situation. I have measured other circuits as well and come up with different lengths. I am trying to see if there was another factor that I was missing. If you do not understand a process of estimating you could be in a big surprise at the end of the job.I am trying to learn estimating. If you have ant thing that would help, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Re: Electrical estimating book
Sorry that my sarcasm was not adequately obvious. I do not have a copy of the referenced book but have read others. I agree that a likely cause is shrinkage during the printing process. This is why scaled prints should note merely state the scale [such as 1/4" = 1 foot] but also include a scaled diagram [scaled feet marked off on a scaled line].
I am certainly not in the estimating end of things. But I can offer some observations for your enjoyment.
1] Romex comes in coils or boxes of 250' and 1000' [I think -- I don't do residential] so your estimate is mainly concerned with whether you should buy two rolls or three 1000' rolls of Romex for a particular house. Whether an individual run is 46.5' or 55' is trivial. When you are dealing with large feeders which cost $15/foot, then you use true tape. And it is always better to have more than not enough. [The excess is converted into beer money by the crew.]
2] Estimates tend to be optimistic. Whomever is most optimistic wins the bid. I like the story about these two contractors who had just lost a bid. They were with-in a couple of thousand og each other. The winning bidder was walking passed them with a big grin on his face. His bid was ~$40,000 lower. They raised their voices enough to be over heard: "I wonder if he included that $40,000 imported Italian marble staircase?" The "winner"'s complexion turned a pale gray.
3] Some things, such as panels, fixtures, etc. can be taken off the drawings and added up with simple arithmatic. But other things such as length of wire, amount of conduit, number of couplings, etc. can only be guessed at. Each installer has a different way of running wire or conduit. Perhaps there may be a window in the midle of your 46' pr 55' run. One worker may run over the window to save wire while another may run under the window to save ladder time. The important thing is to avoid having your $30/hr. journeyman spending 15 minutes wandering around the complex looking, begging for a 10? one hole strap or waiting three days for a 3/4" connector.
4] I have a hunch that the biggest killer of an estimate is the labor factor. I dare not elaborate here.
5] Remember Murphey's Law. It works.
~Peter
Sorry that my sarcasm was not adequately obvious. I do not have a copy of the referenced book but have read others. I agree that a likely cause is shrinkage during the printing process. This is why scaled prints should note merely state the scale [such as 1/4" = 1 foot] but also include a scaled diagram [scaled feet marked off on a scaled line].
I am certainly not in the estimating end of things. But I can offer some observations for your enjoyment.
1] Romex comes in coils or boxes of 250' and 1000' [I think -- I don't do residential] so your estimate is mainly concerned with whether you should buy two rolls or three 1000' rolls of Romex for a particular house. Whether an individual run is 46.5' or 55' is trivial. When you are dealing with large feeders which cost $15/foot, then you use true tape. And it is always better to have more than not enough. [The excess is converted into beer money by the crew.]
2] Estimates tend to be optimistic. Whomever is most optimistic wins the bid. I like the story about these two contractors who had just lost a bid. They were with-in a couple of thousand og each other. The winning bidder was walking passed them with a big grin on his face. His bid was ~$40,000 lower. They raised their voices enough to be over heard: "I wonder if he included that $40,000 imported Italian marble staircase?" The "winner"'s complexion turned a pale gray.
3] Some things, such as panels, fixtures, etc. can be taken off the drawings and added up with simple arithmatic. But other things such as length of wire, amount of conduit, number of couplings, etc. can only be guessed at. Each installer has a different way of running wire or conduit. Perhaps there may be a window in the midle of your 46' pr 55' run. One worker may run over the window to save wire while another may run under the window to save ladder time. The important thing is to avoid having your $30/hr. journeyman spending 15 minutes wandering around the complex looking, begging for a 10? one hole strap or waiting three days for a 3/4" connector.
4] I have a hunch that the biggest killer of an estimate is the labor factor. I dare not elaborate here.
5] Remember Murphey's Law. It works.
~Peter
Re: Electrical estimating book
No Peter we are not just trying to find out how many rolls of romex we need to buy. Here is a quote right out of Mike Holt's book [ A great percentage of electrical work is acquired through the estimating process,and most jobs are awarded to the contractor who has the best perceived price, but not necessarily the lowest. Because of demands to have the best perceived price, profit margins are limited. This permits you to have only a small margin for error in the estimate. A proper estimate must accurately determine your cost in completing the job according to the customer's needs. The price must be acceptable to your customers at a value that includes sufficient profit for you to stay in business. In addition to helping you determine the selling price for a job, the estimate is used as the foundation for project management.] See Peter there is more to it than what you THINK, try it Peter you may learn something, have a nice day. GO COWBOYS!
[ November 05, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
No Peter we are not just trying to find out how many rolls of romex we need to buy. Here is a quote right out of Mike Holt's book [ A great percentage of electrical work is acquired through the estimating process,and most jobs are awarded to the contractor who has the best perceived price, but not necessarily the lowest. Because of demands to have the best perceived price, profit margins are limited. This permits you to have only a small margin for error in the estimate. A proper estimate must accurately determine your cost in completing the job according to the customer's needs. The price must be acceptable to your customers at a value that includes sufficient profit for you to stay in business. In addition to helping you determine the selling price for a job, the estimate is used as the foundation for project management.] See Peter there is more to it than what you THINK, try it Peter you may learn something, have a nice day. GO COWBOYS!
[ November 05, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical estimating book
Maybe it depends a lot on the size of the electrical contractor and the the jobs they bid on.
I thought what Peter said made sense.
I am also not in the estimating end of things, but I do know that our estimators do not have the time to go over each and every branch circuit on the prints.
Square footage, number of points, passed experience on previous similar jobs are how they tell me they do it.
I do not think 10,000 feet of MC one way or the other will make a difference on most of the jobs we do.
Labor will be the deciding factor for us on making or losing money.
[ November 06, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Maybe it depends a lot on the size of the electrical contractor and the the jobs they bid on.
I thought what Peter said made sense.
I am also not in the estimating end of things, but I do know that our estimators do not have the time to go over each and every branch circuit on the prints.
Square footage, number of points, passed experience on previous similar jobs are how they tell me they do it.
I do not think 10,000 feet of MC one way or the other will make a difference on most of the jobs we do.
Labor will be the deciding factor for us on making or losing money.
[ November 06, 2003, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Re: Electrical estimating book
The first step to becoming a successful and profitable electrical contractor is knowing your cost, to do a job, without an accurate estimate how can you know the cost of a job?
[ November 06, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
Miss a motor branch circuit are two, a lighting circuit, maybe two or three, and you will wish the estimator had been more careful in his take off,$$$$$$$$$$$ OUCH!
Lets see, 1000 foot roll of 12/2 mc cost around $220.00, miss 10,000 feet, and well you do the math $$$$$$$ OUCH
The first step to becoming a successful and profitable electrical contractor is knowing your cost, to do a job, without an accurate estimate how can you know the cost of a job?
[ November 06, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: jro ]
charlie tuna
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Electrical estimating book
jro----- you have the right idea. in estimating everything counts weather you see it on the prints or not. it's a great feeling to go to a bid meeting and "know" what your job "cost" is! this measurement may be a project with five hundred units - accuracy in your bid process is a must! big or small always try to be as accurate as possible. if you start building problem costs into the price - you'll be too high, and if you get sloppy and don't include everything you'll be too low! most of my work is t&m and i have never really mastered the art of estimating- but i've done pretty good for the last twenty-two years! but i believe in a days work for a day's pay! all my customers are happy. i can look a job over and come up with a close price just from expieriance.
but that isn't the correct way of doing business, i wish i had learnt the right way instead of "flying by the seat of my pants"!
jro----- you have the right idea. in estimating everything counts weather you see it on the prints or not. it's a great feeling to go to a bid meeting and "know" what your job "cost" is! this measurement may be a project with five hundred units - accuracy in your bid process is a must! big or small always try to be as accurate as possible. if you start building problem costs into the price - you'll be too high, and if you get sloppy and don't include everything you'll be too low! most of my work is t&m and i have never really mastered the art of estimating- but i've done pretty good for the last twenty-two years! but i believe in a days work for a day's pay! all my customers are happy. i can look a job over and come up with a close price just from expieriance.
but that isn't the correct way of doing business, i wish i had learnt the right way instead of "flying by the seat of my pants"!
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