luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Hi Roger.
Good question
Todd
Hi Roger.
Good question
Todd
Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
- Thread starter joe tedesco
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I would say the NEC does not care who is the hook for the violations.
We work for a lot of property management companies and the smart ones put rules in the leases that put the tenant moving out on the hook to leave the space passable.
We get called in to put in KO seals, etc.
I would say the NEC does not care who is the hook for the violations.
We work for a lot of property management companies and the smart ones put rules in the leases that put the tenant moving out on the hook to leave the space passable.
We get called in to put in KO seals, etc.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
The question: "Who is responsible?"
Answer: The owner of a facility always holds ultimate responsiblity. Many (maybe most)of them don't know that. The owner may be able to spread the liability around with insurance, contracts, etc., and depending on who has the deepest pockets it may not end with them. But responsibility will always start with the owner.
[ June 01, 2004, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
The question: "Who is responsible?"
Answer: The owner of a facility always holds ultimate responsiblity. Many (maybe most)of them don't know that. The owner may be able to spread the liability around with insurance, contracts, etc., and depending on who has the deepest pockets it may not end with them. But responsibility will always start with the owner.
[ June 01, 2004, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Why should the responsibility not fall on the guy who disconnected it to make sure that it is safe?
Why should the responsibility not fall on the guy who disconnected it to make sure that it is safe?
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I don't want to imply that no one else has responsibility / liability - only that a "search for the guilty" always begins with the owner of a property or facility and while they may have some form of indemnification they are always "responsible."
I don't want to imply that no one else has responsibility / liability - only that a "search for the guilty" always begins with the owner of a property or facility and while they may have some form of indemnification they are always "responsible."
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
To All Members, Chiefs, Moderators and Mike Holt too:
I hope that these pictures will help to explain some of the issues being discussed here?
There are some very serious and imminent dangers everywhere? Most of these installations were energized! You too can walk around the block, or onto properties and find these same problems!
The rule below really should be in the NEC!
Maybe then some lives would be saved! Let me know if you want to see the dead and burned bodies where electricity has taken the life of someone! I will send a few to you for your archives or classes!
The NFPA NEC Committees are concerned about life safety!
Their job is to make sure that the NEC includes:
"Rules to minimize the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as an ignition source of fires and explosions."
Here is the rule that belongs in the NEC in Article 90:
80.9(B) Existing Installations.
Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants.
Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard.
To All Members, Chiefs, Moderators and Mike Holt too:
I hope that these pictures will help to explain some of the issues being discussed here?
There are some very serious and imminent dangers everywhere? Most of these installations were energized! You too can walk around the block, or onto properties and find these same problems!
The rule below really should be in the NEC!
Maybe then some lives would be saved! Let me know if you want to see the dead and burned bodies where electricity has taken the life of someone! I will send a few to you for your archives or classes!
The NFPA NEC Committees are concerned about life safety!
Their job is to make sure that the NEC includes:
"Rules to minimize the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as an ignition source of fires and explosions."
Here is the rule that belongs in the NEC in Article 90:
80.9(B) Existing Installations.
Existing electrical installations that do not comply with the provisions of this Code shall be permitted to be continued in use unless the authority having jurisdiction determines that the lack of conformity with this Code presents an imminent danger to occupants.
Where changes are required for correction of hazards, a reasonable amount of time shall be given for compliance, depending on the degree of the hazard.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
We all know the types of problems that you are speaking to. Until the scope of the NEC is changed, it will only apply to the installation and not the upkeep of electrical systems. We can't make the changes that you want. Make the appropriate proposals including the scope change for the 2008 code. Article 80 will no longer exist as an article when the 2005 code is published.
Don
Joe,
We all know the types of problems that you are speaking to. Until the scope of the NEC is changed, it will only apply to the installation and not the upkeep of electrical systems. We can't make the changes that you want. Make the appropriate proposals including the scope change for the 2008 code. Article 80 will no longer exist as an article when the 2005 code is published.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I think that the NEC should cover this situation in some cases because the committee is responsible for:
"Rules to minimize the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as an ignition source of fires and explosions." and because of the word "use" in:
110.1 Scope.
This article covers general requirements for the examination and approval, installation and use[/use], access to and spaces about electrical conductors and equipment, and tunnel installations.
I think that the NEC should cover this situation in some cases because the committee is responsible for:
"Rules to minimize the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as an ignition source of fires and explosions." and because of the word "use" in:
110.1 Scope.
This article covers general requirements for the examination and approval, installation and use[/use], access to and spaces about electrical conductors and equipment, and tunnel installations.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
The scope of an article cannot change the scope of the document. The scope of the document is "installation". That will have to change before any rules of the type that you are asking for can become part of the code.
Don
Joe,
The scope of an article cannot change the scope of the document. The scope of the document is "installation". That will have to change before any rules of the type that you are asking for can become part of the code.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Don:
Where does it say that, they can do anything they want, just take a look at the reports for the last 10 cycles ... they all follow the leader .... and can make these suggestions work.
Look at the rejection for adding AFCI to Article 100 where it shows up more that two times it is still in 210.12, believe me the issues are valid!
The code book must come out on time so all of the people who rely on it can get paid and eat!
Don:
Where does it say that, they can do anything they want, just take a look at the reports for the last 10 cycles ... they all follow the leader .... and can make these suggestions work.
Look at the rejection for adding AFCI to Article 100 where it shows up more that two times it is still in 210.12, believe me the issues are valid!
The code book must come out on time so all of the people who rely on it can get paid and eat!
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
It is my opinion that if the types of rules that you want to see were put into the NEC, that it would be a step backwards. I say this because I believe than many governmental units that now adopt the NEC would no longer adopt it. They would not want to accept the added burden and liability of inspecting existing installations.
Don
Joe,
That doesn't always happen. There should have been a 1974 code but there wasn't.
It is my opinion that if the types of rules that you want to see were put into the NEC, that it would be a step backwards. I say this because I believe than many governmental units that now adopt the NEC would no longer adopt it. They would not want to accept the added burden and liability of inspecting existing installations.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I suppose you may be right in some ways, but I think that most government agencies do pay attention to electrical safety.
I have been on different government sites and there are even worst hazards related to what can be considered as hazardous, and obsoleted and dangerous electrical installations.
How is this issue handled in your area or on your work site?
Don: The 1974 NEC was late and came out with a 1975 date because of the death of John Watt, the NEC Secretary, a note to that is in the inside cover.
I suppose you may be right in some ways, but I think that most government agencies do pay attention to electrical safety.
I have been on different government sites and there are even worst hazards related to what can be considered as hazardous, and obsoleted and dangerous electrical installations.
How is this issue handled in your area or on your work site?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe here in Indiana most units of government (county's, city's towns, Etc...) have a ordinance adopted that only allows them to require repairs or shut power off in the event they see a violation that is imminent danger to life or property. But it does say that they have to allow time for the owner to have the problem repaired. But this is a very limiting law as we all know that just like any law enforcement they just cant violate private property with out a court order and that takes a probable cause. but if it is in a public place that the public can legally be at then they do have the right to protect the general public. We have one city that has a inspector that drives around the city looking for damage risers and service equipment. And he even knows he is walking on thin ground when he tries to get home owners to repair damaged service equipment that might have been that way for several years. It does generate some income for us but I don't feel good about it as I know there will be a law suit someday and I don't want to be in the middle of it.
Joe here in Indiana most units of government (county's, city's towns, Etc...) have a ordinance adopted that only allows them to require repairs or shut power off in the event they see a violation that is imminent danger to life or property. But it does say that they have to allow time for the owner to have the problem repaired. But this is a very limiting law as we all know that just like any law enforcement they just cant violate private property with out a court order and that takes a probable cause. but if it is in a public place that the public can legally be at then they do have the right to protect the general public. We have one city that has a inspector that drives around the city looking for damage risers and service equipment. And he even knows he is walking on thin ground when he tries to get home owners to repair damaged service equipment that might have been that way for several years. It does generate some income for us but I don't feel good about it as I know there will be a law suit someday and I don't want to be in the middle of it.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Hurk
Thanks for the reply.
Why is the inspector walking on thin ground? Isn't that a part of his or her job?
What do you think about this installation located in Harrisburg, PA
Hurk
Thanks for the reply.
Why is the inspector walking on thin ground? Isn't that a part of his or her job?
What do you think about this installation located in Harrisburg, PA
tony_psuee
Senior Member
- Location
- PA/MD
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
I would be curious to know the date of the photo from Harrisburg? I live in that area of PA and have seen and heard a lot from the city government about enforcing safety codes for tenants, even giving the city inspectors the right to enter rentals at will to inspect and fine the owners and condemn the building if it is not brought up to standard. One problem though is they seem to be focusing on the landlords that are behind on their property taxes. So, relying on the AHJ may not guarantee uniform enforcement and as indicated by others, that section of the NEC may not be adopted. My experience is mostly on the industrial end and I have heard of sites that the AHJ passed and the building owner's insurance company flagged and forced corrections. Using my own company as an example, for anything new we comply to NEC and local codes. However, our insurance underwriter inspects all US plants on a regular basis and we repair and maintain based on their requirements.
Tony
Joe,
I would be curious to know the date of the photo from Harrisburg? I live in that area of PA and have seen and heard a lot from the city government about enforcing safety codes for tenants, even giving the city inspectors the right to enter rentals at will to inspect and fine the owners and condemn the building if it is not brought up to standard. One problem though is they seem to be focusing on the landlords that are behind on their property taxes. So, relying on the AHJ may not guarantee uniform enforcement and as indicated by others, that section of the NEC may not be adopted. My experience is mostly on the industrial end and I have heard of sites that the AHJ passed and the building owner's insurance company flagged and forced corrections. Using my own company as an example, for anything new we comply to NEC and local codes. However, our insurance underwriter inspects all US plants on a regular basis and we repair and maintain based on their requirements.
Tony
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
tony
I took this picture about 1 year ago. I have more of the same area and some were even published in EC&M. The entire installation was in the downtown area near the Amtrak station.
I use Amtrak when traveling on the East Coast, they have GFCI receptacles on the train and that keeps me on line.
Look here for more service and meter horrors:
http://themeterguy.com/photogallery/index1.html
tony
I took this picture about 1 year ago. I have more of the same area and some were even published in EC&M. The entire installation was in the downtown area near the Amtrak station.
I use Amtrak when traveling on the East Coast, they have GFCI receptacles on the train and that keeps me on line.
Look here for more service and meter horrors:
http://themeterguy.com/photogallery/index1.html
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
The fire escape looks new.
At least if there's a fire, they got a safe way out.
The fire escape looks new.
At least if there's a fire, they got a safe way out.
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