joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
[ December 04, 2005, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: joe tedesco ]
Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
- Thread starter joe tedesco
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I don't understand what your question is.
The statement is just a fancy way of saying there is no substantial link between your proposal and electrical safety.
It appears they feel it is a maintenance issues verses a needed installation practice.
I don't understand what your question is.
The statement is just a fancy way of saying there is no substantial link between your proposal and electrical safety.
It appears they feel it is a maintenance issues verses a needed installation practice.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Nexus: a causal link.
Sounds like CMP 1 does not feel the same as you do about what the NEC does and does not cover.
JMO, Bob
Tenuous: having little substance or strength.
Nexus: a causal link.
Sounds like CMP 1 does not feel the same as you do about what the NEC does and does not cover.
Are you saying the panel members would make their decisions for the sake of a joke over safety?
JMO, Bob
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
I think that they are just telling you that abandoned wiring is not an electrical safety hazard. In my opinion, wiring and equipment that is still energized is not abandoned.
Don
Joe,
I think that they are just telling you that abandoned wiring is not an electrical safety hazard. In my opinion, wiring and equipment that is still energized is not abandoned.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Thanks you three for your comments, however, you would appreciate some of my comments if you spent some time sitting at the panel meetings when the proposals, and comments are being reviewed, or during the breaks when they chat about the issues. Remember that I was an NFPA Staff Liaison long before any that are in that position now.
I have attended the meetings for about 8 code cycles, that's since 1981. Some of you didn't even know what a ROP or ROC was until it was discussed on the bulletin boards.
Most of the members on the NEC committees have instructed votes, and they are paid to protect certain interests.
I have no specific agenda except electrical safety.
I think you would feel different if someone you knew, or a family member was hurt or electrocuted by the exposed wires that I have shown everywhere in my articles, and on the web pages.
At the present time I am working with the Electrical Safety Foundation International, and the NACHI Foundation Safe House Campaign. You will see more on this subject.
The subject is electrical safety, and the attempt to try and save the lives lost in the real word when fire or shock is caused by electricity.
Please let me know when you will present a seminar on either subject, so I can register and sit in as a student and listen to you.
Please also send me a list of books you wrote, edited, reviewed, or any article that has your name under it so I can read them and see if I can understand the way in which you think.
Thanks you three for your comments, however, you would appreciate some of my comments if you spent some time sitting at the panel meetings when the proposals, and comments are being reviewed, or during the breaks when they chat about the issues. Remember that I was an NFPA Staff Liaison long before any that are in that position now.
I have attended the meetings for about 8 code cycles, that's since 1981. Some of you didn't even know what a ROP or ROC was until it was discussed on the bulletin boards.
Most of the members on the NEC committees have instructed votes, and they are paid to protect certain interests.
I have no specific agenda except electrical safety.
I think you would feel different if someone you knew, or a family member was hurt or electrocuted by the exposed wires that I have shown everywhere in my articles, and on the web pages.
At the present time I am working with the Electrical Safety Foundation International, and the NACHI Foundation Safe House Campaign. You will see more on this subject.
The subject is electrical safety, and the attempt to try and save the lives lost in the real word when fire or shock is caused by electricity.
Please let me know when you will present a seminar on either subject, so I can register and sit in as a student and listen to you.
Please also send me a list of books you wrote, edited, reviewed, or any article that has your name under it so I can read them and see if I can understand the way in which you think.
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe: there is no need to be so high-hatted about this. This subject was brought up last year on the ICC site and you deleted your post (deleting the entire string) when there were too many anti-comments. It is not logical here too assign simplistic meanings to the positions of those opposed to your proposal. On this site it can be taken for granted that even the unassuming have spent their lifetimes around electrical construction.
I know of no one here who believes damaged wiring is not hazardous, however it seems obvious that there are those who do not agree with your idea of fixing it.
I saw at the very least that there were problems with the definition of "abandoned", that unused wiring was considered part of the proposal, and that there was the intent of some of the proponents (in the ICC discussion) to tack "damaged wiring" onto the "abandoned" definition.
The unforeseen consequences of the proposal looked troublesome. Some see the code as the letter of the law and the version of your proposal that I saw last year was not suited for letter of the law type situations. As a proposal it was too sweeping in scope and could lead to draconian problems for minor fixes.
lighten up
paul
Joe: there is no need to be so high-hatted about this. This subject was brought up last year on the ICC site and you deleted your post (deleting the entire string) when there were too many anti-comments. It is not logical here too assign simplistic meanings to the positions of those opposed to your proposal. On this site it can be taken for granted that even the unassuming have spent their lifetimes around electrical construction.
I know of no one here who believes damaged wiring is not hazardous, however it seems obvious that there are those who do not agree with your idea of fixing it.
I saw at the very least that there were problems with the definition of "abandoned", that unused wiring was considered part of the proposal, and that there was the intent of some of the proponents (in the ICC discussion) to tack "damaged wiring" onto the "abandoned" definition.
The unforeseen consequences of the proposal looked troublesome. Some see the code as the letter of the law and the version of your proposal that I saw last year was not suited for letter of the law type situations. As a proposal it was too sweeping in scope and could lead to draconian problems for minor fixes.
lighten up
paul
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
I really admire your body of work and certainly consider you a leader of our indusrty. I don't think anyone here doubts your dedication and commitment to electrical education and safety awarness.
I also don't think any of the responders to your question specificaly implied or stated they agree with the comment made by the panel. You really didn't ask our opinion on the issue, but rather an interpretation of an odd use of terminology.
Your second response, though appreciative, reads as if you feel we have taken a stance in opposition to your concerns. Everyone of us on this forum is absoultely and positively concerned with the matter of electrical safety and protection of persons and property. I truely believe that.
Many of us here also made proposals that were rejected. I know I certainly have no interests other than safety and feel my proposals were for just that, however, the consensus of the panel felt otherwise. And though I can not provide the credentials and experience that you certainly have, it doesn't mean my concerns and effotts have no merit or substance.
Joe,
I really admire your body of work and certainly consider you a leader of our indusrty. I don't think anyone here doubts your dedication and commitment to electrical education and safety awarness.
I also don't think any of the responders to your question specificaly implied or stated they agree with the comment made by the panel. You really didn't ask our opinion on the issue, but rather an interpretation of an odd use of terminology.
Your second response, though appreciative, reads as if you feel we have taken a stance in opposition to your concerns. Everyone of us on this forum is absoultely and positively concerned with the matter of electrical safety and protection of persons and property. I truely believe that.
Many of us here also made proposals that were rejected. I know I certainly have no interests other than safety and feel my proposals were for just that, however, the consensus of the panel felt otherwise. And though I can not provide the credentials and experience that you certainly have, it doesn't mean my concerns and effotts have no merit or substance.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
We have been around and around on this. Yes, many of the pictures that you show are very serious hazards, but your proposal was to require abandoned wiring to be removed. Truly abandoned wiring does not present an electrical safety hazard. If the wiring or equipment is connected to an energized source, then there is a hazard, but your proposal that was rejected did not appear cover that type of hazard.
By the way, just because you served on code panels, worked for the NFPA and wrote books doesn't make your views any more valid than other peoples views. No one person is any more important than any other person.
Joe,
We have been around and around on this. Yes, many of the pictures that you show are very serious hazards, but your proposal was to require abandoned wiring to be removed. Truly abandoned wiring does not present an electrical safety hazard. If the wiring or equipment is connected to an energized source, then there is a hazard, but your proposal that was rejected did not appear cover that type of hazard.
Many of the other pictures show problems that were caused by poor or lack on maintenance. While these are serious problems they appear to outside the scope of the NEC.
Maybe the scope of the NEC needs to be changed or a maintenance code needs to be developed to cover these serious safety issues.
By the way, just because you served on code panels, worked for the NFPA and wrote books doesn't make your views any more valid than other peoples views. No one person is any more important than any other person.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Paul and BP:
I never intended to create any ill feelings here and I hope that you understand that I came here after a while and looked for some help.
I am not what you think I am, and Paul the "high hatted" remark puzzles me? Have we ever met in person, and have we ever discussed the Code in the same audience?
Everyone has access to my background, and knows that I have been involved in the code and safety for a long time.
I am not afraid to tell people what I feel, and always have their best interests in mind.
I am always able to listen and learn, and if I made it sound any different I apologize.
I have a cell phone and anyone can call me anytime, and they do and I help when asked.
The ICC board is a nice place and the issues seem to get off the topic at hand at times, I am still a member and will take a look again.
I found this hazard a few weeks ago in Boston and thought that we could put this in our minds when discussing the issues related to exposed wiring.
Please be careful when strolling down Newbury Street in Boston, Massachusetts.
Keep the kids away from the damages and exposed wiring.
Looks like the cable is Romex? The run comes from a restaurant underground.
Paul and BP:
I never intended to create any ill feelings here and I hope that you understand that I came here after a while and looked for some help.
I am not what you think I am, and Paul the "high hatted" remark puzzles me? Have we ever met in person, and have we ever discussed the Code in the same audience?
Everyone has access to my background, and knows that I have been involved in the code and safety for a long time.
I am not afraid to tell people what I feel, and always have their best interests in mind.
I am always able to listen and learn, and if I made it sound any different I apologize.
I have a cell phone and anyone can call me anytime, and they do and I help when asked.
The ICC board is a nice place and the issues seem to get off the topic at hand at times, I am still a member and will take a look again.
I found this hazard a few weeks ago in Boston and thought that we could put this in our minds when discussing the issues related to exposed wiring.
Please be careful when strolling down Newbury Street in Boston, Massachusetts.
Keep the kids away from the damages and exposed wiring.
Looks like the cable is Romex? The run comes from a restaurant underground.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Thanks Don:
I believe that the NEC should be revised to include a revision as follows:
Thanks Don:
I believe that the NEC should be revised to include a revision as follows:
I think that the words "and use" could be added elsewhere in this code section too.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Your comment does describe myself, and at some point you did not know what a ROP or ROC was. None of us know anything until we take an interest and learn about it.
You ask questions and make statements on an open forum, you will get responses from authors to installers.
I do care about safety, I also agree with many of the comments that Paul has made previously.
You continue to use the word abandoned, I looked at your slide show and do not feel that, for example, a traffic light on a street corner missing a JB cover is abandoned, it is unsafe but it is not abandoned.
IMO many of the pictures you show do not show abandoned wiring, just neglected wiring. There are rules in place now that require covers on live electrical equipment.
I agree with Pierre, you want to get something done about dangerous electrical installations, the insurance industry is the place to start.
Just one guys opinion, Bob
[ May 30, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Joe some would read that as a "I am better than you" type comment.
Your comment does describe myself, and at some point you did not know what a ROP or ROC was. None of us know anything until we take an interest and learn about it.
This comment and others you have posted on this subject at other forums, calling the CMP members "puppets" really bothered me. :roll:
What does that mean? :roll:
You ask questions and make statements on an open forum, you will get responses from authors to installers.
I do care about safety, I also agree with many of the comments that Paul has made previously.
You continue to use the word abandoned, I looked at your slide show and do not feel that, for example, a traffic light on a street corner missing a JB cover is abandoned, it is unsafe but it is not abandoned.
IMO many of the pictures you show do not show abandoned wiring, just neglected wiring. There are rules in place now that require covers on live electrical equipment.
I agree with Pierre, you want to get something done about dangerous electrical installations, the insurance industry is the place to start.
Just one guys opinion, Bob
[ May 30, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe
You have some strong opinions, and that is a good thing, as I too have strong opinions. By coming to these forums, I have learned more in one year than all of my other years combined.
A crucial education for me on these forums is other peoples ideas. It is not that we do not agree with you, it is your approach at times is harsh. I try to listen and still sometimes put my foot in my mouth, but I do listen. The NEC most likely will not serve the purpose of what you are trying to accomplish. I believe what you are trying to do is very, very important to the future of our industry, but it has to be from a different approach. Maybe the insurance industry or some other unforseen avenue. You have great strength and energy, but will not be able to do this on your own, it is a huge undertaking. Reach out for help and I believe you will get it, remember people have feelings and use your talents wisely - as you stated in another post, you will follow this to fruition and I believe you can and will.
Respectfully
Pierre
Joe
You have some strong opinions, and that is a good thing, as I too have strong opinions. By coming to these forums, I have learned more in one year than all of my other years combined.
A crucial education for me on these forums is other peoples ideas. It is not that we do not agree with you, it is your approach at times is harsh. I try to listen and still sometimes put my foot in my mouth, but I do listen. The NEC most likely will not serve the purpose of what you are trying to accomplish. I believe what you are trying to do is very, very important to the future of our industry, but it has to be from a different approach. Maybe the insurance industry or some other unforseen avenue. You have great strength and energy, but will not be able to do this on your own, it is a huge undertaking. Reach out for help and I believe you will get it, remember people have feelings and use your talents wisely - as you stated in another post, you will follow this to fruition and I believe you can and will.
Respectfully
Pierre
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe as it has been pointed out many of the hazards you show are not abandoned. They are damaged and not repaired or poorly maintained. I am completely with you in regards to cleaning up these hazards. The NEC is not the authority for this however. Local health and safety officials might be a better place to start. As for your attitude I don't care how many books you've written, pictures you've taken, committees you've sat on, classed you've taught, etc. When you start acting like a three year old because you didn't get your way or everyone does not agree with you people will ignore your credentials the next time something comes up and greet you with a roll of the eyes and a "Here goes Joe again".
Joe as it has been pointed out many of the hazards you show are not abandoned. They are damaged and not repaired or poorly maintained. I am completely with you in regards to cleaning up these hazards. The NEC is not the authority for this however. Local health and safety officials might be a better place to start. As for your attitude I don't care how many books you've written, pictures you've taken, committees you've sat on, classed you've taught, etc. When you start acting like a three year old because you didn't get your way or everyone does not agree with you people will ignore your credentials the next time something comes up and greet you with a roll of the eyes and a "Here goes Joe again".
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
I do agree that many of the pictures that you post reflect conditions that are, if I can borrow a term from my hazmat training, IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health). Some steps should be taken to protect the public, I'm just not sure that this protection can be accomplished via the NEC.
Don
Joe,
I'm not sure the adding the words "or use" would be strong enough to cover the hazards pointed out in your pictures. Maybe it should be, "installation, maintenance, and use". The addition of the word maintenance would also require at least one new article to cover the maintenance issues. There may be a lot of resistance to this type of change in the NEC as it would be a step towards making the NEC apply retroactively.
I do agree that many of the pictures that you post reflect conditions that are, if I can borrow a term from my hazmat training, IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health). Some steps should be taken to protect the public, I'm just not sure that this protection can be accomplished via the NEC.
Don
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
OK.... How can we work together and get the message to the right people? The insurance companies, news media, the local fire marshals, the owners of the property?
Keep in mind that the original proposal was not one that I thought up. I found it in another NFPA document.
I think that there is a problem, and you all agreed that electrical safety is also an important concern of yours.
I will take your recommendations seriously and as constructive criticism and calm down, and move forward hopefully with your help in some way.
At least 2 or three of you are located in the New England area and in Massachusetts and I have asked before that we meet somewhere.
I will be here this Friday and you are welcomed:
Free: www.nachi.org/easternmasschapter.htm
OK.... How can we work together and get the message to the right people? The insurance companies, news media, the local fire marshals, the owners of the property?
Keep in mind that the original proposal was not one that I thought up. I found it in another NFPA document.
I think that there is a problem, and you all agreed that electrical safety is also an important concern of yours.
I will take your recommendations seriously and as constructive criticism and calm down, and move forward hopefully with your help in some way.
At least 2 or three of you are located in the New England area and in Massachusetts and I have asked before that we meet somewhere.
I will be here this Friday and you are welcomed:
Free: www.nachi.org/easternmasschapter.htm
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Thanks Don, great idea! I agree that the added words you suggest will create some concerns and maybe that will spark the development of a new article. I still think that we can begin to address this issue sooner in some way and suggest that a new document be drafted and proposed.
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe,
Your effort is valid and admirable, but long term maintanence on electrical wiring and systems is beyond the NEC.
I'm sure we've all gone out to a job and viewed existing and aged work that made our skin crawl, but the responsibility to remedy the problems are not, nor will ever be covered by the NEC.
As contractors we can recommend a "fix" to the owner, but often it is just viewed as us wanting to pad our back pocket with a repair that isn't needed, by their standards, since it still works.
Joe,
Your effort is valid and admirable, but long term maintanence on electrical wiring and systems is beyond the NEC.
I'm sure we've all gone out to a job and viewed existing and aged work that made our skin crawl, but the responsibility to remedy the problems are not, nor will ever be covered by the NEC.
As contractors we can recommend a "fix" to the owner, but often it is just viewed as us wanting to pad our back pocket with a repair that isn't needed, by their standards, since it still works.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe, the NEC is an installation standard, not a maintenance standard. The inspector for new construction is not going to be able to enforce a maintenance standard unless his jurisdiction adopts one.
BTW, I don't know of a single panel member, including myself, who receives any pay for their participation. Most are paid their normal pay for attending the meetings for the company they are working for or the organization if they are a consultant. This even applied to you when you were involved.
Joe, you really do have a problem when people disagree with you, don't you? I'll leave the rest of the comments out of this reply.
Joe, the NEC is an installation standard, not a maintenance standard. The inspector for new construction is not going to be able to enforce a maintenance standard unless his jurisdiction adopts one.
BTW, I don't know of a single panel member, including myself, who receives any pay for their participation. Most are paid their normal pay for attending the meetings for the company they are working for or the organization if they are a consultant. This even applied to you when you were involved.
Joe, you really do have a problem when people disagree with you, don't you? I'll leave the rest of the comments out of this reply.
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe, As others have commented, I too think the term "abandoned wiring" is too broad. Define abandon wiring as it pertains to your proposal. I think enforcement would be all over the place. In most of my industrial installations spare conductor sets are pulled in raceways with no immediate plans for termination or use. Lean Manufacturing programs dictate flexibility and diversity. Economics dictate the electrician plan ahead for this. Conductors in raceways are disconnected and re-connected on a regular basis as the flow of production in a plant is re-configured over and over. I think it would be a logistic nightmare to remove and replace these conductors repeatedly, not to mention cost prohibitive. I don't see the added safety of doing so. On the contrary, damage to other conductors in the raceway would become more likely. We do tag such conductors for our own benefit. I don't think your proposal was meant to apply to conductors in the situation I described but would under such broad definitions.
Joe, As others have commented, I too think the term "abandoned wiring" is too broad. Define abandon wiring as it pertains to your proposal. I think enforcement would be all over the place. In most of my industrial installations spare conductor sets are pulled in raceways with no immediate plans for termination or use. Lean Manufacturing programs dictate flexibility and diversity. Economics dictate the electrician plan ahead for this. Conductors in raceways are disconnected and re-connected on a regular basis as the flow of production in a plant is re-configured over and over. I think it would be a logistic nightmare to remove and replace these conductors repeatedly, not to mention cost prohibitive. I don't see the added safety of doing so. On the contrary, damage to other conductors in the raceway would become more likely. We do tag such conductors for our own benefit. I don't think your proposal was meant to apply to conductors in the situation I described but would under such broad definitions.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Why would you say anything at all here about keeping the rest of your reply to yourself? You are just looking for me to come back to you, aren't you.
My number is on my web page, call me anytime!
If you had something to say to me why didn't you say it to me in Salt Lake City! Instead you choose to hide behind the keyboard and post it here, and try to embarrass me!
I know that the NEC is not a maintenance standard, and I believe that most people are just afraid that it will cost too much to keep the electrical systems safe, and that they will not have enough help to keep up with the workload.
What does getting paid for attending meetings have to do with electrical safety, you are sent to the meetings on the companies expense, and I attended the ROC and TCC meetings at my expense.
I have been in your area too, and have some pictures of some of the electrical installations that are not maintained and include services.
Can you give me some idea of what the utility company does when something is found to be unsafe? I am sure that the repairs are taken care of right away, right?
Charlie, I admire your knowledge and remember when you sat in on a seminar of mine many years ago, and look at you now, we are proud of you too.
Can you please give me a thumbnail sketch of exactly what you do?
I mean in the field for the utility company, just curious?
I am not looking to start any arguments with you or anyone else here.
Charlie:
Why would you say anything at all here about keeping the rest of your reply to yourself? You are just looking for me to come back to you, aren't you.
My number is on my web page, call me anytime!
If you had something to say to me why didn't you say it to me in Salt Lake City! Instead you choose to hide behind the keyboard and post it here, and try to embarrass me!
I know that the NEC is not a maintenance standard, and I believe that most people are just afraid that it will cost too much to keep the electrical systems safe, and that they will not have enough help to keep up with the workload.
What does getting paid for attending meetings have to do with electrical safety, you are sent to the meetings on the companies expense, and I attended the ROC and TCC meetings at my expense.
I have been in your area too, and have some pictures of some of the electrical installations that are not maintained and include services.
Can you give me some idea of what the utility company does when something is found to be unsafe? I am sure that the repairs are taken care of right away, right?
Charlie, I admire your knowledge and remember when you sat in on a seminar of mine many years ago, and look at you now, we are proud of you too.
Can you please give me a thumbnail sketch of exactly what you do?
I mean in the field for the utility company, just curious?
I am not looking to start any arguments with you or anyone else here.
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