Electrical Modifications - How far do you go?

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benjamin8761

Sr Electrical Engineer
Location
Laconia
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
Existing Description:

We are modifying an apartment with a mix of cloth wiring and Romex with 1980's style SQ-D type QO load center. There are no Arc Fault breakers or GFCI protection. We are essentially looking at a early 1980's renovation which utilized existing conductors (Cloth). The receptacle spacing/requirements do not meet todays code.

Modifications:

The lighting will be replaced complete with switches - device (Greater than 6 feet of new wire 21012-D). This will require the installation of Arc Fault breakers.

This will more than likely require a panel upgrade because the new breakers will not fit into the ~45 year old panel. We will then need to supply Arc Fault breakers for the receptacles, if we have shared neutrals, we will have complete failure of these devices or nuisance trips. Now we need to replace the wiring of the receptacles.
The receptacles do not have the appropriate spacing, we will need to upgrade the spacing to meet code because we touched a receptacle.

Question

How far do we need to go per code and how far should we go?

We want to make improvements and not have the general improvements stopped because of creep.

This is an ongoing problem - How far do you go.
 
There is no requirement to rip out the old wiring but if it's in poor condition the owner may want it all replaced as Bob suggested. Old NM cable had a reduced sized EGC if it had one at all. If the entire place is being renovated I would just start over.

*Please update your profile to include your location and occupation. Thanks.
 
infinity said:
There is no requirement to rip out the old wiring but if it's in poor condition the owner may want it all replaced as Bob suggested. Old NM cable had a reduced sized EGC if it had one at all. If the entire place is being renovated I would just start over.

*Please update your profile to include your location and occupation. Thanks.
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Update complete
 
Some of the questions about what is required vary based upon local codes. So this should be discussed with the local authorities.

If you go so far as replacing the panel, AFCIs are available that work with properly wired shared neutral circuits.

-Jon
 
The OP is a little indescriptive.

Is this place being gutted? If not, why should you have to add receptacles to meet current spacing requirements? If it is being good then there's no question, right?

Can you just add a small sub panel for arc fault breakers instead of changing the whole panel?
 
James L said:
The OP is a little indescriptive.

Is this place being gutted? If not, why should you have to add receptacles to meet current spacing requirements? If it is being good then there's no question, right?

Can you just add a small sub panel for arc fault breakers instead of changing the whole panel?
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In one apartment an extension cord ran over a radiant heat (Hot Water) and over a table to a receptacle. The issue is there a code required that requires the branch circuits to be upgraded of you are changing out a panel.
 
benjamin8761 said:
In one apartment an extension cord ran over a radiant heat (Hot Water) and over a table to a receptacle. The issue is there a code required that requires the branch circuits to be upgraded of you are changing out a panel.
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The answer is that the NEC does not specify when you have to update much of anything (with a handful of exceptions).

Most localities have rules in place that will tell you what you have to replace. For instance, some places would require replacement of the wiring in the walls if the walls were gutted down to the studs. There is no way for anyone here to tell you the answer to your question. You will have to research this with your AHJ.

incidentally, the NEC does not much care what is plugged into a receptacle (with perhaps an occasional exception). This is just not usually a NEC issue.
 
benjamin8761 said:
In one apartment an extension cord ran over a radiant heat (Hot Water) and over a table to a receptacle. The issue is there a code required that requires the branch circuits to be upgraded of you are changing out a panel.
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You can change panels all day long and not upgrade branch circuits.

It doesn't sound like that's all your are doing. If you get a permit for a major remodel then it may be required that circuits be upgraded. If you make it throught all the other inspections and this job requires a Fire Inspection then I'm pretty sure the Fire Marshals inspection would not be happy with an extension cord used as permanent wiring.
 
growler said:
You can change panels all day long and not upgrade branch circuits.

It doesn't sound like that's all your are doing. If you get a permit for a major remodel then it may be required that circuits be upgraded. If you make it throught all the other inspections and this job requires a Fire Inspection then I'm pretty sure the Fire Marshals inspection would not be happy with an extension cord used as permanent wiring.
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The extension cord will not be present while the fire marshal inspector is there.
 
NEC has very few places where an upgrade is required if you don’t change out circuits. For instance an upgrade to a GFCI/AFCI receptacle but not necessarily the breaker. Read the Code carefully. They did this intentionally to leave you an “out”. In a lighting circuit that might be a different issue.

If you are running new receptacles sure you need to meet current Code requirements for spacing but not if it’s old/original but there is no mandatory requirement to fix old spacing issues so adding one is fine. You’d only need to fix it if you remove the sheet rock and start over. If it was legal at the time it was done it’s legal now.

The most challenging thing with old receptacles is the need to add grounding to a two wire system. As mentioned a subpanel can also solve a lot of issues. Also you are assuming communing of the neutrals exists but that is a lot less common in practice. It was never legal and can lead to major fire problems so professional electricians didn’t do it even before GFCIs and AFCIs existed.

UL did an investigation on very old houses looking for possible issues long term. They found cloth insulation is fine. The issues they found were related to things that weren’t up to Code even at the time and some BX issues. Doesn’t sound like your situation,
 
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