Electrical panel sales

[jeff48356]

I need your opinions here: Do you think big-box stores and electrical supply houses should restrict sales of panels to licensed electrical contractors only? HVAC has been doing that already for decades. Only a licensed HVAC contractor can purchase a furnace or an A/C condenser. So why should electrical be any different? It would surely cut down on hacks such as in the video below, if they no longer have easy access to panels.

Home Depot, for example, could probably implement this rather easily. They already have a policy where you need to show your ID at the register if you buy spray paint, to prove that you're at least 18. They could start a policy where you have to show a valid electrical contractor (or master electrician) license in order to buy a panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJsfzzqaOAA

 

[electrofelon]

I have never come across or heard of a business that screened potential customers to determine their knowledge level I suspect the case you speak of is a business that only sells to other businesses, it's not that they are not selling to unknowledgable people.

Edit to add: as to the specific question, I think it would be a poor business decision to restrict sales to certain groups of people. I also don't think it's anyone's business to worry about what I'm buying or my qualifications.

 

[sliderule]

I think they should be asking to see a permit if you buy electrical items with a total value above a certain amount - $100, $500 or some figure so the general public can still buy things for repairs or small projects. They way it is now, anyone can go to HD and almost buy enough electrical supplies to do a high-rise and nobody blinks an eye... :roll:

But what electrical contractor buys their supplies at HD or other retail store except for maybe small things for after hours convenience? HD = too many hassles, don't have want you need, are out of stock, slow to get in & out, etc. Any time I'm there, there's nobody at the "contractor desk" and the parking stalls for "contractors" are mostly empty.

 

[romex jockey]

Vermont is DIY libertopia ,anything goes.

The downside is , the trades assume bueraucratic backlash , litigation skyrockets....

Personal responsiblity becomes scarce

So....if your stance is buyer beware, come to VT, we've gotta deal for you!!!

~RJ~

 

[goldstar]

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$

The sales reps for companies that make the panels would greatly limit their sales volume if they only sold to supply houses that only sold to licensed contractors.

"Do you want to sell 1000 panels to EC's this month or 100000 to big box stores" ?

 

[roger]

Doing electrical work on ones own home is a perfectly fine, it should be permitted and inspected but it should always be allowed. If doing electrical work in your own home is made illegal working on your car should be too, I am more worried about a 4000 lb vehicle barreling at me at 70 mph with 6/32's holding the front end together.

Roger

 

[oldsparky52]

Doing electrical work on ones own home is a perfectly fine, it should be permitted and inspected but it should always be allowed. If doing electrical work in your own home is made illegal working on your car should be too, I am more worried about a 4000 lb vehicle barreling at me at 70 mph with 6/32's holding the front end together.

Roger

I'm much more concerned with people working on their own vehicles than doing electrical work on their home.

I agree with Roger completely. Before you regulate electrical supplies, you better start regulating vehicle brake sales.

 

[goldstar]

Doing electrical work on ones own home is a perfectly fine, it should be permitted and inspected but it should always be allowed. Roger

In one respect I would agree with you but in another not everyone who does their own work (be it electrical, auto repairs, etc.) has enough qualifications to do the work. There has to be some standard by which one should do the work other than "I want to save a few $$$ - electricians/auto mechanics are too expensive." Unfortunately there's no way to police that quality so big box sales will still go on.

You know as well as I and all other EC's in this forum, in 99% of the cases, when you walk into a home to do electrical work you can usually tell if the previous work was done by an EC or a HO. In the case of a residence, you home is your castle until you try to sell it to some unsuspecting individual. Thus the reason for inspections - the wiring has to be done to a specific standard. However, if there were no inspections then you would never know that the previous HO wired the house with extension cords or antenna wire (and YES, I've seen both )

 

[growler]

I watched that video and those bootleg grounds wouldn't fool many home inspectors. It probably would have a few years ago but that trick has been used to often. I have not seen a bootleg ground in years.

What really would happen is the home inspector would write up all those double tap breakers and suggest they get an electrician. An electrician would notice there are no ground wires in the panel. Just out of curiosity he would plug in his tester and see it shows a ground. After checking a couple of receptacles he would inform the owner of the hazard ( probably in writing ).

That electrician stated that GFCI protecting these circuits would not be a good idea. I agree that it's not the best solution to the problem but considering a $15K rewire (his quote) I believe that's about the best option left. About the only way to get tamper resistant receptacles. Most of these flippers are not going to pay for a complete rewire.

 

[augie47]

I can picture the "back alley" sales

 

[growler]

Do you think big-box stores and electrical supply houses should restrict sales of panels to licensed electrical contractors only?

I was watching a program about dangerous drugs and people overdosing . It appears that drug dealers can order Fentanyl on-line from China.

If there is a demand for a product someone will supply it.

 

[roger]

In one respect I would agree with you but in another not everyone who does their own work (be it electrical, auto repairs, etc.) has enough qualifications to do the work.

True, but in a good number of states there is no licensing so same difference.

There has to be some standard by which one should do the work other than "I want to save a few $$$ - electricians/auto mechanics are too expensive." Unfortunately there's no way to police that quality so big box sales will still go on.

It could be they just want to say they did it themselves.

You know as well as I and all other EC's in this forum, in 99% of the cases, when you walk into a home to do electrical work you can usually tell if the previous work was done by an EC or a HO. In the case of a residence, you home is your castle until you try to sell it to some unsuspecting individual. Thus the reason for inspections - the wiring has to be done to a specific standard. However, if there were no inspections then you would never know that the previous HO wired the house with extension cords or antenna wire (and YES, I've seen both )

And this is where due diligence comes to play when someone is making a big investment, there are HI's or tradespeople that can inspect MEP items.



Roger

 

[growler]

And this is where due diligence comes to play when someone is making a big investment, there are HI's or tradespeople that can inspect MEP items.

I got involved in the sale of a 2 million dollar house a few years ago ( after it was sold, naturally).

The home inspector wrote up all the missing grounds and suggested they get an electrician to investigate further. They didn't, at least not until they had purchased the home. The seller was a licensed GC but it was still a Flipper special.

Buy the way the panel was new and it looked great. All the wire that was visible in the basement was new an looked great. The very first place they could hide their work they set a box and connected to old knob and tub wiring.

 

[kwired]

I need your opinions here: Do you think big-box stores and electrical supply houses should restrict sales of panels to licensed electrical contractors only? HVAC has been doing that already for decades. Only a licensed HVAC contractor can purchase a furnace or an A/C condenser. So why should electrical be any different? It would surely cut down on hacks such as in the video below, if they no longer have easy access to panels.

Home Depot, for example, could probably implement this rather easily. They already have a policy where you need to show your ID at the register if you buy spray paint, to prove that you're at least 18. They could start a policy where you have to show a valid electrical contractor (or master electrician) license in order to buy a panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJsfzzqaOAA

I went to HD website and searched for air conditioners, narrowed the results down to whole house air conditioners and came up with 45 hits for mostly split system units. Some of them were direct purchase with a price, others were get a quote with in home consultation. Pretty sure I can buy one.

Sales of older refrigerants is restricted, not just by the supply house but by law, not so much to homeowners, just to those that are licensed to handle it, anyone can get that certification AFAIK, but unless you plan to do it regularly probably not worth it.

Sure limiting electrical equipment sales would be somewhat a boost to electrical professionals, but IMO is still unconstitutional. With that kind of approach, nobody should do anything they are not trained to do. Can't even clean your own house with that approach, unless that is what you do for a living.

I do a lot of things in my own place including construction, plumbing, HVAC as well a auto and other machinery repairs. On a professional level I may do a little of all of those things at times, but usually try to limit them to how it may relate to my electrical work. If a framer is already on a job, I likely get them to frame something for me, if not a framer on the job, simple 4 hour job can take days just to wait for a framer to show up, let alone the cost it will add for such a simple project in most cases.

 

[Coppersmith]

I need your opinions here: Do you think big-box stores and electrical supply houses should restrict sales of panels to licensed electrical contractors only? HVAC has been doing that already for decades. Only a licensed HVAC contractor can purchase a furnace or an A/C condenser. So why should electrical be any different? It would surely cut down on hacks such as in the video below, if they no longer have easy access to panels.

Home Depot, for example, could probably implement this rather easily. They already have a policy where you need to show your ID at the register if you buy spray paint, to prove that you're at least 18. They could start a policy where you have to show a valid electrical contractor (or master electrician) license in order to buy a panel.

What annoys me more is the parking spaces marked for pros only. I see all sorts of "civilians" parked there. IMHO if the vehicle doesn't have a licence number on it or a copy of a licence in the window, the car should be towed. (I'm not kidding.)

 

[Coppersmith]

But what electrical contractor buys their supplies at HD or other retail store except for maybe small things for after hours convenience? HD = too many hassles, don't have want you need, are out of stock, slow to get in & out, etc. Any time I'm there, there's nobody at the "contractor desk" and the parking stalls for "contractors" are mostly empty.

I'm an EC. I'm not sure what HD's are like in Canada. Where I live, they are fully stocked with what I need to do electrical work. I do jobs in a 30 mile radius from my house and there is a HD not more than 15 minutes drive from any location. I buy 99% of my materials there and the other 1% at supply houses. Supply houses are more expensive (sometimes by double), and less convenient. Oh and I see lots of other EC's and their employee's shopping there too.

 

[oldsparky52]

What annoys me more is the parking spaces marked for pros only. I see all sorts of "civilians" parked there. IMHO if the vehicle doesn't have a licence number on it or a copy of a licence in the window, the car should be towed. (I'm not kidding.)

:lol:

Man, I GET IT!

 

[Jraef]

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$

The sales reps for companies that make the panels would greatly limit their sales volume if they only sold to supply houses that only sold to licensed contractors.

"Do you want to sell 1000 panels to EC's this month or 100000 to big box stores" ?

Meh... I'm not sure I buy into that because ostensibly the DEMAND for 100,000 panels is there no matter how they are purchased. If not available as retail, are people going to stop needing panels? No.

That said, I don't like the idea of making every sales clerk at HD or Lowes into a license cop. I don't want to be waiting in line to buy my slug bait while some idiot clerk argues with someone trying to buy a panel over whether or not he qualifies as a contractor, it's slow enough as it is.

If you as an EC cannot articulate the value of your services to someone, you are either a bad marketer, or they are too stupid to understand anyway and you probably don't want to do business with them.

 

[peter d]

Absolutely, positively no way. I am a DIYer and do all kinds of other trade work like plumbing and heating when needed. I would strongly dislike being restricted from buying those products that I need for that kind of work.

 

[drcampbell]

... Sales of older refrigerants is restricted, not just by the supply house but by law, not so much to homeowners, just to those that are licensed to handle it, anyone can get that certification AFAIK, but unless you plan to do it regularly probably not worth it. ...

You need to know what the law is, know what the procedures are for keeping it out of the atmosphere, and pass a written exam. But self-study is fine; you don't need a formal apprenticeship.

One of the curious results: For a few years, (1991-ish, iirc) Refrigerant-12 became the most-smuggled (by weight) illegal import across the Mexican border. I don't remember the exact number but I think it was thousands of tons per year.

Another curious result: I had a clerk at a big-chain auto-parts store refuse to sell me refrigerant. His corporate office told him they could only sell to people with the EPA certificate, and the certificate had to say "automotive". (there are four categories) My certificate didn't qualify me, because it says "universal".

Finally: I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh for the entertainment value, back when he was entertaining and before his "Three Hours, Two Thoughts" format became too much to bear. One afternoon, I'm listening to him tell about how EPA licensing of refrigerant handlers (my words; he called it a big-government liberal-overreach prohibition) would be the end of refrigeration, which would be the end of fresh food, the end of insulin, the death of many and the downfall of society. By coincidence, one of my stops that same day is the refrigeration supply house, where there's literally TWO TONS of the stuff on the sales floor. Hundreds of 15- and 30-pound cylinders on pallets. I guess they hadn't heard about the "ban".