Electrical Rooms
- Thread starter cayton
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Re: Electrical Rooms
The voltage is 480V, metal clad switchgear, with a 150KVa transformer 480V-120/208 3-phase dry type. Specifically is it a safety hazard for a non qualified person in the area of the electrical equiptment to be using the space as an office? Additionally there is a sink in the "office," approximately 20 feet from the transformer and switchgear. We believe it is a safety hazard for this individual to be inside the room. Do you have any references that would state this specifically?
The voltage is 480V, metal clad switchgear, with a 150KVa transformer 480V-120/208 3-phase dry type. Specifically is it a safety hazard for a non qualified person in the area of the electrical equiptment to be using the space as an office? Additionally there is a sink in the "office," approximately 20 feet from the transformer and switchgear. We believe it is a safety hazard for this individual to be inside the room. Do you have any references that would state this specifically?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Electrical Rooms
If they keep the desk and the chair out of the required "working clearance," then the NEC does not prohibit this. The only area that is required to not be used for storage is the working clearance.
If they keep the desk and the chair out of the required "working clearance," then the NEC does not prohibit this. The only area that is required to not be used for storage is the working clearance.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Electrical Rooms
And having a sink 20 feet away does not seem like a hazard to me.
It's not unusual for utility rooms to have janitor sinks in them along with panelboards and other electrical equipment.
Think about your own home - you may well have a panelboard located in your basement well within 20 feet of your laundry tub. is that inherently unsafe?
No offense, but I don't see how any of these articles you cited would prohibit what is being done, as long as the working space rules were being followed.
And having a sink 20 feet away does not seem like a hazard to me.
It's not unusual for utility rooms to have janitor sinks in them along with panelboards and other electrical equipment.
Think about your own home - you may well have a panelboard located in your basement well within 20 feet of your laundry tub. is that inherently unsafe?
Re: Electrical Rooms
I'll tell you why I selected those articles with the limited information supplied...
90.1 Purpose. ~ (A) Practical Safeguarding. - Pretty obvious
110.16 Flash Protection. - It is entirely possible that the office dweller is clueless as to the hazards of electricity. He would be sitting at his desk wondering why the electrician who is working on the panels has all sorts of PPE w/him
110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. - Another pretty obvious choice
The "big one":
110.27 Guarding of Live Parts.
(A) Live Parts Guarded Against Accidental Contact. Except as elsewhere required or permitted by this Code, live parts of electrical equipment operating at 50 volts or more shall be guarded against accidental contact by approved enclosures or by any of the following means:
(1) By location in a room, vault, or similar enclosure that is accessible only to qualified persons.
(2) By suitable permanent, substantial partitions or screens arranged so that only qualified persons have access to the space within reach of the live parts. Any openings in such partitions or screens shall be sized and located so that persons are not likely to come into accidental contact with the live parts or to bring conducting objects into contact with them.
As the exact equipment was not identifed, erring on the side of caution is always better. Not that my comments were in any way erroneous.
No offense, but I don't understand your comment:
My panel is located on the complete opposite side of the house from the laundry...something I am quite happy with as I just swapped out the single slop sink for a double....I don't know about your home, but I know mine is safe.
None taken.
I'll tell you why I selected those articles with the limited information supplied...
90.1 Purpose. ~ (A) Practical Safeguarding. - Pretty obvious
110.16 Flash Protection. - It is entirely possible that the office dweller is clueless as to the hazards of electricity. He would be sitting at his desk wondering why the electrician who is working on the panels has all sorts of PPE w/him
110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment. - Another pretty obvious choice
The "big one":
110.27 Guarding of Live Parts.
(A) Live Parts Guarded Against Accidental Contact. Except as elsewhere required or permitted by this Code, live parts of electrical equipment operating at 50 volts or more shall be guarded against accidental contact by approved enclosures or by any of the following means:
(1) By location in a room, vault, or similar enclosure that is accessible only to qualified persons.
(2) By suitable permanent, substantial partitions or screens arranged so that only qualified persons have access to the space within reach of the live parts. Any openings in such partitions or screens shall be sized and located so that persons are not likely to come into accidental contact with the live parts or to bring conducting objects into contact with them.
As the exact equipment was not identifed, erring on the side of caution is always better. Not that my comments were in any way erroneous.
No offense, but I don't understand your comment:
...as everything I said was leading in that direction....and it had not yet been established what type of room and voltages we were talking about. For all we knew, at that point, it could have been a bus collector room.
The sink location was established AFTER my first post.
FWIW, cayton is NOT talking about a dwelling unit.
My panel is located on the complete opposite side of the house from the laundry...something I am quite happy with as I just swapped out the single slop sink for a double....I don't know about your home, but I know mine is safe.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Electrical Rooms
Well, now that we know we are not dealing with an open, energized bus bar, and that all energized parts are internal to panels and other boxes, we can say that 110.27 does not apply. In addition, since the person will be working at a desk, and will not be opening the panels and boxes as part of his or her duties, there is no question of creating an arc flash hazard. So 110.16 does not apply. As Bob and I have already said, if they keep all of the office stuff out of the space reserved for working clearance, then there would be no violation of 110.26. Finally, 90.1 has nothing to say about this situation. True, the NEC is all about practical safeguarding, but there is no hazard here that requires safeguarding.
This situation is not a code violation. Is it safe? Yes, presuming again that working clearance is maintained and that the occupant does not feel free to open panels and poke around. Is it a good idea? I would say no. But that is a design consideration, and not a code issue.
Well, now that we know we are not dealing with an open, energized bus bar, and that all energized parts are internal to panels and other boxes, we can say that 110.27 does not apply. In addition, since the person will be working at a desk, and will not be opening the panels and boxes as part of his or her duties, there is no question of creating an arc flash hazard. So 110.16 does not apply. As Bob and I have already said, if they keep all of the office stuff out of the space reserved for working clearance, then there would be no violation of 110.26. Finally, 90.1 has nothing to say about this situation. True, the NEC is all about practical safeguarding, but there is no hazard here that requires safeguarding.
This situation is not a code violation. Is it safe? Yes, presuming again that working clearance is maintained and that the occupant does not feel free to open panels and poke around. Is it a good idea? I would say no. But that is a design consideration, and not a code issue.
Re: Electrical Rooms
Thank you all for your comments. When we were looking through the code books, we couldn't find anything on the exact situation, so we decided to see if anyone else knew. We didn't think it was the safest thing in the world, and therefore assumed it would be a code violation. Thank you all once again for your responses.
Thank you all for your comments. When we were looking through the code books, we couldn't find anything on the exact situation, so we decided to see if anyone else knew. We didn't think it was the safest thing in the world, and therefore assumed it would be a code violation. Thank you all once again for your responses.
marinesgt0411
Senior Member
- Location
- Naples,FL 34110-9285
Re: Electrical Rooms
It may not be a NEC violation but as I have run into a number of times is that it may fall under the local fire codes.
It may not be a NEC violation but as I have run into a number of times is that it may fall under the local fire codes.
Re: Electrical Rooms
As soon as the tenant starts using the transformers/equipment to put a coffee maker or files on, it's a violation...or starts to pile assorted crap around the equipment...and it will more than likely happen.
I gave you the code articles...use them and paint yellow lines to define the "working clearances".
As soon as the tenant starts using the transformers/equipment to put a coffee maker or files on, it's a violation...or starts to pile assorted crap around the equipment...and it will more than likely happen.
I gave you the code articles...use them and paint yellow lines to define the "working clearances".
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Electrical Rooms
I've regularly seen excess floor space in electrical rooms turned into a maintenance office or janitor's office. It starts off neat and tidy, and before you know it there's crap in every square inch of working space.
I've regularly seen excess floor space in electrical rooms turned into a maintenance office or janitor's office. It starts off neat and tidy, and before you know it there's crap in every square inch of working space.
Re: Electrical Rooms
I have found that NFPA 70E Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace article 400.18(A) deals directly with this issue see what you all think.
400.18 Enclosure for Electrical Installations.
(A) Electrical installation in vault, room, or closet or in area surrounded by a wall, screen, or fence access to which is controlled by lock and key or other approved means, shall be considered accessible to qualified persons only.
Basically if the equipment is in a room with walls and a door that is locked it should only be accessed by qualified persons only. Most likely the people that are using it are not qualified persons. Hopefully this helps.
I have found that NFPA 70E Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace article 400.18(A) deals directly with this issue see what you all think.
400.18 Enclosure for Electrical Installations.
(A) Electrical installation in vault, room, or closet or in area surrounded by a wall, screen, or fence access to which is controlled by lock and key or other approved means, shall be considered accessible to qualified persons only.
Basically if the equipment is in a room with walls and a door that is locked it should only be accessed by qualified persons only. Most likely the people that are using it are not qualified persons. Hopefully this helps.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Electrical Rooms
This seems to be a definition of what is "considered accessible to qualified persons only", not any kind of prohibition on who can be in the same room as electrical equipment.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Electrical Rooms
What I am saying is that the phrase "accessible only to qualified persons" is not intended as a ban on allowing anyone into the room. What it means is that if you choose to take advantage of the less restrictive rules, making the installation dangerous to the public but safe enough for qualified persons, then and only then do you have to keep the public out. On the other hand, if you follow the more restrictive rules, making it safe enough for anyone to be close by, then you do not have to keep out the public (and you can install a desk), even if the room does have a lock.
[ July 12, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
I have a completely different take on the meaning of this article, and I agree with petersonra. If the general public (or in this case, an office worker) can be in the vicinity of electrical equipment, then we have one set rules about the installation (i.e., to protect the public). But if the equipment is accessible only to qualified persons, the rules are less restrictive (i.e., there is no need to protect the public).
What I am saying is that the phrase "accessible only to qualified persons" is not intended as a ban on allowing anyone into the room. What it means is that if you choose to take advantage of the less restrictive rules, making the installation dangerous to the public but safe enough for qualified persons, then and only then do you have to keep the public out. On the other hand, if you follow the more restrictive rules, making it safe enough for anyone to be close by, then you do not have to keep out the public (and you can install a desk), even if the room does have a lock.
[ July 12, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Do an arc flash hazard analysis and you will probally find the arc flash boundary to be about 15-20 feet. He can stay in the "office" but will need to wear a flash suit 
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