Electrical safety for Engineers

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lile001

lile001

Senior Member
Location
Midwest
I've been thinking about safety procedures for electrical engineers. We often have to take the covers off panelboards to see how they tick. What rules do you guys use around this kind of hazard?

Do you allow your people to attach clamp-on CT's and voltage probes (we do a lot of recording KW meter work) without electrical gloves?

Do you allow your people to take covers off of electrical equipment alone?

Do you allow your people to poke around inside panelboards ("man, I could see that wire size better if I just dusted it off...") barehanded?

Does your engineering staff own a pair of electrical gloves?

Does your engineering staff own a fiberglass stepladder?

Does your engineering staff know CPR?

Do you own any double insulated tools - pliars, screwdrivers?

Do you have a pair of plastic calipers (for measuring the size of a live conductor) and do you use them barehanded or with electrical gloves?

Do you have your electrical gloves tested periodically?

We are trying to come up with consistent policies on all these points, and I'd like opinions from everybody else on how they handle this.

--Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Project Solutions Engineering
Columbia, MO 65202
573-443-7100
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Please get a copy of NFPA 70E. It has the answers and OSHA is starting to use 70E as an enforcement tool. :D
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Unfortunately most engineering firms that I've spoken with (and worked for), violate many of the safety practices mentioned in your list of questions.
As mentioned by Charlie, NFPA 70E gives the answers. It is trying to get compliance is the problem.
As I just read a trade magazine, it indicated 3/4 of electricians have found tools, etc left behind inside equipment. Yikes :eek:
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I have worked for a half dozen or so engineering companies of various sizes. None had a formal policy that would address any of your questions. My own rules are that

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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I might consider it safe to remove the front cover of a panel alone, but only with the permission of the owner.</font>
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would not reach into a panel for any reason.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I needed information that required reaching in, I would ask the owner to provide an electrician to support me.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have been trained in CPR, but the training is not current.</font>
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I own none of the tools you describe, and I do not think any engineering company I have ever worked for has owned such tools.</font>
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Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I was told to take the cover off panels by the Owner of this firm because of fear of not having accurate panels schedules.

I basically told him (owner) if you pay for my full length rubber body suit, or any hospitals bills and involuntary vacation pay that my occur, we have a deal!!

Not for me, I only go by the spaces in the panel. If I'm looking for extra circuits in existing panels, I have electrian there on staff take it off for me. Me, myself...forgettaboutit!!


Lady :)
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

My company made it simple; we declared that Home Office personnel were automatically "Unqualified Person(s)? ? including me ? and I was on the 70E TC for 2000 and the ROP stage of 2004. They weren't permitted to do any "hands on" testing and were only permitted to "inspect" de-energized equipment.

We enforced it rigorously too. It did take a little over a year to ?get the word out? on domestic sites and convince everyone we meant it but we were able to do it.

At first, it may seem impractical, but we found we were quite capable of collecting appropriate data working through qualified persons. Our insurance rates were the absolute best in the industry; enough so, that we concluded it was sufficent to justify the policy.
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Do you allow your people to attach clamp-on CT's and voltage probes (we do a lot of recording KW meter work) without electrical gloves?

No way, if they cross the RAB they are required to wear gloves rated for the voltages present.

Do you allow your people to take covers off of electrical equipment alone?

No, we require 2 persons for any work insode of the LAB as the 70E states.

Do you allow your people to poke around inside panelboards ("man, I could see that wire size better if I just dusted it off...") barehanded?

Only the ones we dont like very much, kidding, of course not.

Does your engineering staff own a pair of electrical gloves?

Yes, I am unaware of any OSHA or NFPA rules that have different rules for engineers.

Does your engineering staff own a fiberglass stepladder? No, they steal the electricians.

Does your engineering staff know CPR?

Yes, to meet the OSHA requirement (1910.269(b))they better.

Do you own any double insulated tools - pliars, screwdrivers? Yes

Do you have a pair of plastic calipers (for measuring the size of a live conductor) and do you use them barehanded or with electrical gloves?

Unless they are rated for the voltages present tools may not be used as your primary means of protection.

Do you have your electrical gloves tested periodically? Every 6 month per 1910.137
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I have no idea what would require an engineering staff to comply with an OSHA requirement for CPR training?? :D ).

So we usually try to get electricians to do the dirty work. But I do like a couple of your ideas - like having a pair of gloves or plastic calipers.

On the other hand, that might just make us braver. Do gloves still need regular testing for use at 208 volts?? I don't see us doing enough live work to warrant paying for regular testing.

Steve
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I don't see us doing enough live work to warrant paying for regular testing.
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In my opinion, any live work is enough to warrant regular testing. The alternative is to KEEP YOUR HANDS OUT OF THE GOODIES! :eek:
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I should have seen that coming, Charlie, but that's basically what I meant. If we aren't going to have gloves tested regularly, there is no use in getting them. So we will just keep getting the electricians to do the hot stuff.

Steve
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Some engineering firms in my area have built relationships or standing contracts/accounts with EC's to do their field surveys for them.
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Originally posted by sandsnow:
Some engineering firms in my area have built relationships or standing contracts/accounts with EC's to do their field surveys for them.
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Personally, I am in favor of having some one else do this type of work for me. Some things are a bit tougher to get trained people for and I can't pawn it all off on someone else, but rooting around inside live panels is best left to those with the gear.

OTOH, I am not all that afraid to do some probing of lower voltage stuff, especially the stuff I designed, since I try to design it to make it relatively easy to test. I don't usually have to work inside panelboards or MCCs, so its not normally an issue with me. I try to stick to 24V. much safer.
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Posted by Charlie:

Sorry Steve, it looks like I overreacted.
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No you didn't overact. I agree routine testing of equipment should be a requirement for anyone doing live work. So your comment is good advice for everyone. :)

Steve

[ May 24, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

I wonder how many people are even aware of the requirement for hot gloves to be tested every six months. And I really wonder how many of them actually do it. :confused:
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Originally posted by kentirwin:
I wonder how many people are even aware of the requirement for hot gloves to be tested every six months. And I really wonder how many of them actually do it. :confused:
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I have a 5000 volt breakdown tester from Slaughter Company Slaughter Company they can also be had from Hipotronics. Ebay is a good place to find these reasonably. I bought mine very cheaply used from a manufacturer that was closing a production line.

We have a written procedure for testing gloves, but it is basically this: Fill the glove with salt water, dunk it in a bucket of salt water almost up to the end of the sleeve, and apply 5000V. If you can measure current flow (the tester will show failure at 3ma) then the glove is no good and you cut it up with scissors. They make great rubber bands.

Right now our testing interval is 1 year, we'll change it to 6 months now that we know the regs. I cut up a pair of gloves last year.

--Lawrence Lile, P.E.
Project Solutions Engineering
www.projsolco.com
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

Originally posted by charlie b:
[*]I own none of the tools you describe, and I do not think any engineering company I have ever worked for has owned such tools.
[/list] [/QB]
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I have found it very useful to take covers off of panels from time to time. For instance, how do you determine the size of an existing wire without looking at it (lacking design drawings of course)? How do you do a punch list at the end of construction without looking inside the panel? Has the contractor provided the proper bushings at conduit entries, or is the wire scraping away at rough burrs? Is the wire the proper size and type? Etc. Etc.

We also do load studies, and these involve clamping CT's onto panelboards with the covers off. Same with harmonic studies, which we've done from time to time.

The other day we found a switchboard with mimic bus (mimic bus is a graphic of the guts of the unit placed on the front of the switchboard) on the front that didn't make any sense. We took the back off the switchboard (with an electrician's help) and found out the mimic bus was in error, and the switchboard was configured completely differently than we had imagined. Since I had to draw a riser diagram of the existing equipment, this was critical to understanding the system.

And of course we have to troubleshoot things. Years ago I was inside an Allen Bradley variable frequency drive with a soldering iron, but that is another story.....

So I find taking covers off of things to be a critical part of my job.
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

One safety item I didn't see anyone mention was a face shield. I know that most of you electricians have seen an arc flash. Face shield or at least wear safety glasses.
Jim
 
Re: Electrical safety for Engineers

In some cases a "moon suit" must be worn. In other cases, you can't even open the equipment under any but a de-energized condition because of the magnitude of the available arc blast. There is no way that just a face shield and rubber gloves is enough in those cases, in fact, you are even required to wear cotton underwear. :eek:
 
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