ELectrical service

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jkazeejr

Member
Location
Columbus Ohio
My brother-in-law is a pastor, building a new church, the Utility Company stated they would provide 120/208 3ph service to the new building for free. The current service is 12/240 1ph which is typical. I know there is a demand charge usually associated with 3ph service. Would he be better off keeping existing service or upgrading to 3ph?
 
If the load doesn't warrant 3 phase then why would you go thru the expense to change everything out to 3 phase equipment.
 
What size is the church

What size is the church

What size is the church?
Is it going to airconditioning now and wasn't before?
Will it have a large kitchen in it?

These are a few of the things that need to be asked, it may be more econimical if they need heavy AC load.
 
Jkazeejr said:
My brother-in-law is a pastor, building a new church, the Utility Company stated they would provide 120/208 3ph service to the new building for free. The current service is 12/240 1ph which is typical. I know there is a demand charge usually associated with 3ph service. Would he be better off keeping existing service or upgrading to 3ph?
Click to expand...

Single phase services can have demand charges too. At the poco where I worked the rule was this:

Use over 5,000 kwh for three *consecutive* months and you will go on a demand rate. Once on a demand rate, you can't get off until you have *twelve* consecutive months using less than 5,000 kwh.

Demand rates are not always worse/costlier for the customer. That's a common misconception. But they are more expensive when your load factor is poor and churches usually have the worst load factors. At our utility the break point was around a 45% load factor. (Load factor is the ratio of average load to peak load by the way.) Churches can have load factors below 10%, and if on a demand rate, pay a high price per kwh. All that said, sometimes churches have their own rate schedule, structured so as to pay less of a demand rate than an industrial customer, or in some cases, none.

Anyway, all that was at our utility in Louisiana. Another company in a different state will have a different rate schedule, but it's likely to be similar in concept. A prudent first step is to see what the your poco's rate schedule is for churches.
 
just the cowboy said:
What size is the church?
Is it going to airconditioning now and wasn't before?
Will it have a large kitchen in it?

These are a few of the things that need to be asked, it may be more econimical if they need heavy AC load.
Click to expand...


They have Heat pumps with cooling currently and all the equipment is 1ph. He was just wondering if going to 3ph would be beneficial since the Utility Company was going to install it without charge. The church is in a residential area so there is no 3ph power at all in this area. My thoughts were that the Utility Company stands to gain with bring 3 ph to the area for future expansion.
 
Jkazeejr said:
My brother-in-law is a pastor, building a new church, the Utility Company stated they would provide 120/208 3ph service to the new building for free. The current service is 12/240 1ph which is typical. I know there is a demand charge usually associated with 3ph service. Would he be better off keeping existing service or upgrading to 3ph?
Click to expand...

There is no way to know with any certainty because you have not provided anywhere near enough information with which to make such a determination.

My guess is it won't matter all that much unless it is a very large church.

Is the POCO willing to give them a free 120/240 service in lieu of the free 120/208 service they offered?

I don't know how it is in your area, but around here demand charges are mostly for non-residential services, as opposed to just being 3 phase. The gun club I am in is used heavily at certain points in time with lots of load for ventilation fans when in use, and virtually no load when not in use. We would get killed if there was a demand charge for us. OTOH, since it is mostly non-peak hours we might get a deal when we are forced to go to the smart meters that offer you a deal in off peak hours.
 
It is a small church like 100 members the facility will be like 80 x 120 or something like that and they have to relocate the service entrance so there will be cost for reworking the existing 120/240 1ph, but they offered to provide the 120/208, 3ph for free.
 
Part of the deal with demand charges is on larger capacity services they are assuming you will need a majority of that capacity at least part of the time. If you are going to use it they need to be able to supply it, or you and the POCO both have problems. At the same time if they have the ability to supply it but you never use it they have extra cost in infrastructure and generation abilities that are not paying them back all that well.

Often they have a demand charge that is essentially a minimum charge so to speak, but may also bill a lower rate per kwhr then what a lower demand service may be billed. In the end depending on your usage may end up costing about same or even less then the lower demand service would have with same usage. They sometimes do have peak demand limits as well and you are penalized if you use too much during peak periods.

With three phase the demand charge may be higher because they have more cost in infrastructure to supply three phase service then they have with a similar kVA single phase service.
 
norcal said:
Another question to ask, is the existing equipment suitable for 208V?
Click to expand...
That is actually the base question. Conversion from 120/240V 1Ø 3W to 120/208V 1Ø 3W is relatively painless if 2-pole equipment will operate on 208V.

Most of Franklin County, where Columbus is located (don't know if this is where church is located), is in AEP Ohio (Ohio Power) territory. Been quite a while since I had anything to do with AEP services, but they use to provide meter bases... but that could have been residential only, too. Anyway, I brought this up because if existing is 1Ø 3W, will have to at least change the meter base and service disconnecting means to go to 3Ø 4W.

Having just entered this discussion I have to backtrack some. OP states POCO will run 208/120 to new building for free. So how is it church has existing 120/240 service and a new building... and 208/120V service offering from POCO was not known and researched before building went up?
 
Smart $ said:
Having just entered this discussion I have to backtrack some. OP states POCO will run 208/120 to new building for free. So how is it church has existing 120/240 service and a new building... and 208/120V service offering from POCO was not known and researched before building went up?
Click to expand...

He stated that the existing 1Ø service would need to be relocated at a cost, the 3Ø would be relocated for free in post #7?
 
In my area I always understood that churches (along with residential) were not charged the demand charge (demand meters not used). It may be because most services are 120/240-1ph. (I have been involved in plenty where I could have used the demand.)
 
infinity said:
He stated that the existing 1Ø service would need to be relocated at a cost, the 3Ø would be relocated for free in post #7?
Click to expand...
I've not heard of any POCO that provides a service entrance for free... maybe up to the service entrance, or the service lateral where there is no service entrance per se... perhaps even provide the meter base, as I mentioned earlier... but that's it. IMO the service essentially has to be relocated no matter which configuration he goes with.

Also sounds to me like this new building is still powered with temporary power provided for construction... and now POCO is specifying a different location for permanent service that was either not divulged or failed to get asked by the contractor during the initial consultation with POCO.
 
olc said:
In my area I always understood that churches (along with residential) were not charged the demand charge (demand meters not used). It may be because most services are 120/240-1ph. (I have been involved in plenty where I could have used the demand.)
Click to expand...
Most probably just never have the demand necessary for POCO to assess a demand charge. Even a dwelling with a higher then usual demand may end up in a different rate classification then most other dwellings.

Smart $ said:
I've not heard of any POCO that provides a service entrance for free... maybe up to the service entrance, or the service lateral where there is no service entrance per se... perhaps even provide the meter base, as I mentioned earlier... but that's it. IMO the service essentially has to be relocated no matter which configuration he goes with.

Also sounds to me like this new building is still powered with temporary power provided for construction... and now POCO is specifying a different location for permanent service that was either not divulged or failed to get asked by the contractor during the initial consultation with POCO.
Click to expand...
There has got to be more information that hasn't yet been given. If we have a new building but an existing service - that could mean several possibilities.

I would also guess "existing service" simply means the POCO already had a single phase transformer and service drop/lateral to something on the property, or possibly even means there is only single phase primary voltage currently available at/near the site and distribution system upgrades are necessary if three phase is to be used.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top