Electrolysis in a swimming pool

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sparky1118

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
Master Electrician
I have a customer who just replaced the ladder for a swimming pool. The ladder is already starting to rust and the pool company said the ladder is made out of 316 which I am told is supposed to last the longest in the water. The ladder is only two months old and is starting to rust. This is an indoor swimming pool and I asked asked to test for electrolysis. To be honest I’ve never checked for that in a swimming pool and was looking for a little guidance on how to do that please.


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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I have a customer who just replaced the ladder for a swimming pool. The ladder is already starting to rust and the pool company said the ladder is made out of 316 which I am told is supposed to last the longest in the water. The ladder is only two months old and is starting to rust. This is an indoor swimming pool and I asked asked to test for electrolysis. To be honest I’ve never checked for that in a swimming pool and was looking for a little guidance on how to do that please.


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Are you sure the ladder is made out of 316? Where was the ladder made? Is anything else in the pool rusting?
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Take some HCL acid, it is used as concrete cleaner. Put some on the ladder. If it discolors the ladder, it is not 316L. Probably 304 or maybe even a 200 series stainless.

If there was enough 'electrolysis' in the pool water to rust 316L, I think it would shock people.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I'd test the pool chemistry first. I seriously doubt the ladder is actually 316 even if the pool chemistry is way out of wack and it was a salt pool with a chlorine generator running inside the ladder. Have pics or a mfg for the ladder?

What are the specs on the pool chemistry? ph, free chlorine, salt ppm (if applicable), alkalinity? Heat and humidity will also speed up corrosion.

eta: if the ladders are corroding the water's metal chemistry should be off. There are products to retard corrosion of metals. Here is an article I found:

https://www.everbritecoatings.com/pool_metal.htm
 

sparky1118

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
Master Electrician
The pool is a salt pool I haven’t been by to see the ladder yet I’m going Thursday.


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JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
The pool is a salt pool I haven’t been by to see the ladder yet I’m going Thursday.


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The HO should be able to tell you all of the water chemistry specs I mentioned. If they can't, they haven't been tested or dont know how. Salt generators have control panels that tell you the salt level in ppm - around 3200ppm iirc for an avg pool. Salt water is corrosive obviously but two months is pretty bad for rust. Ask for the ladder and chemistry info before you go looking for an electrical problem that likely doesnt exist here.

I worked at a hotel that converted their huge indoor pool over to salt. None of the SS was rusted or pitted from it. I agree with K8MHZ in that if there were enough voltage to cause corrosion you'd feel shock, tho the pool ladder stanchions could be contacting a dissimilar metal causing galvanic rather than electrolytic corrosion.

As to how to measure, I'd check for AC and DC voltage from the ladder to anything you can get to: base, water, concrete edge, pool bonding, etc.

Might want to bring a can of stainless steel cleaner with you ($7-10 from BB store). Good to have on the truck anyway for removing fingerprints from customers' SS appliances.
 

sparky1118

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
Master Electrician
6558e84fcfb79fcc2c9fdd3efbfbd4e6.jpg

I was just sent this picture


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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
The old ladder was 304 they said and lasted 15 years


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304 has no moly in it and 316 does. 316 is much more resistant to corrosion than 304. A chemical test can verify the presence of moly using this reagent set.

https://www.hach.com/molybdenum-rea...BsbQt6DgCisTTNbFayt-fvQeYoNsYshhoCuisQAvD_BwE

Good for 100 tests, costs about $75. Ladders made of 316 cost $500 - $900. I would ask the pool company to spend the money to verify for moly before doing any other tests. If the ladder is not as corrosion resistant as the old 304, it may not even be 300 series SS. Bring a magnet, if it sticks tight to the ladder it's not 200 or 300 series SS.

"Austenitic stainless steels are the most specified grades producedbecause of their excellent formability and corrosion resistance.All 200 and 300 series steels are austenitic and contain15% to 30% chromium and 2% to 20%nickel for enhanced surface quality, formabilityand increased corrosion and wearresistance. They are non-magnetic inthe annealed condition and dependingon the composition, primarilythe nickel content, they becomeslightly magnetic when coldworked. These steels are used forautomotive trim, cookware, processingequipment and a varietyof industrial applications."
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
It looks like the rust is coming from the ladder mounts. I would request a moly verification test on all parts of the ladder before chasing after errant electrons.

If you look at the ladder riser in the lower right of the picture, there seems to be very light "bands" of rust running around the circumference. Maybe it's an artifact of the picture; what do you think?
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
6558e84fcfb79fcc2c9fdd3efbfbd4e6.jpg

I was just sent this picture


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I bet the hardware attaching the steps to the pool ladder is the culprit.

eta: unless it's a camera setting, that water is entirely too green to be correct (algae, metals, who knows). Correct pool water is light bluish/clear and doesnt look like that. I suppose an abundance of copper ions could also cause it.

Ask if the pool chemistry has been checked. Taylor kits are the standard imo and you *could* check them yourself if you're so inclined. Not hard to learn the basics.

the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced it's crap hardware on the ladder step mounts.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If this is only occurring near where the steps attach I also think the hardware used to attach the steps may be the wrong material.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
If this is only occurring near where the steps attach I also think the hardware used to attach the steps may be the wrong material.

almost looks like staining in the lower tube is above the water level, from splashing or whatnot.
hard to tell.

almost looks like staining is coming down off the tube, and drying on the step.

i've seen "chinese" stainless steel used in shipping food grade equipment, as
supporting struts for partially assembled equipment, broken down for shipping.

it looks just like those handholds above the waterline, after being exposed to
salt air in shipping the equipment. stuff comes out of the crates rusted.

it's used as cheap disposable shipping. looks just like what is here.
no way it's 316L legitimately. if i was going to spend that much on
stainless railing, i sure wouldn't put cheesy steps on it.

without knowing the source of the ladder.... amazon has one looks a lot
like it for $167.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XYPK9...t=&hvlocphy=9031542&hvtargid=pla-311221960243

not 316L for that price. nope.
 

Mystic Pools

Senior Member
Location
Park Ridge, NJ
Occupation
Swimming Pool Contractor
This a 3 step ladder from SR Smith model RLF-24S-3B.

It's noted in their catalog as 304 stainless,

A 316L Marine Grade is available and is recommended for salt pools.

I have seen the rusting, as shown in photo, a few times way before salt pools became popular.
The salt is not the culprit. I have plenty of customers with ladders and rails running on salt that do not have any rust issues.

From the photo, the water appears green. This would indicate the presence of copper in the water which is caused by an acid condition, i.e., low pH and low Total Alkalinity. If there's a heater, it's eating up the exchanger and sending it out to the pool. Anyone using this pool have blonde hair have it turn green after swimming? It happens because of the levels.
pH level should be at 7.6 ppm and TA at 100 ppm (range 80-120 ppm) Free chlorine at 2 ppm is fine.

Even if the salinity level is high, it won't cause this corrosion. There are anodes sold for salt pools to be the sacrificial metal but I've never had a need for them. Salt levels should be between 3000-3400 for the system to work properly and produce chlorine. Output can be regulated to maintain a proper chlorine level.

Interestingly enough, a salt system produces sodium hypochlorite, essentially bleach, which has a high ph value. It drives up the pH and TA slowly and if not kept in check, it can put the pool in scale forming condition. Becomes a basic condition over an acidic condition.
I'd say the homeowner and or the pool service screwed up.

An acidic condition in a pool is one our most common issues as customer never maintain the water, chemistry even they say they do. Usually by this time of the year it shows as we are more than halfway.

It actually looks like the bolts for the treads are rusting. Perhaps they replaced with a non-stainless bolt.

Our work is seasonal and many occasions my customers store their ladders in a shed with a bucket of chlorine and other chems. MANY times when it's time open the pool and we retrieve the ladder(s), the chlorine's fumes from the bucket (BTW, they don't seal completely) eat them apart to the point where they must replaced.

The pool water must tested from a pool store with an electronic tester. We actually have a mobile electronic tester that is super accurate that's used pool side.

Hope this helps.
 
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