Elevator Disconnects - Code Reference

[MJWeese]

Hello, I have a hydraulic elevator whose disconnect is the circuit breaker type in a lockable panel in the elevator machine room. Since it's a high-use hydro, we are adding an oil cooler to the hydraulic fuel tank. The oil cooler disconnect is also a circuit breaker in the same panel. The contractor wants to put another disconnect for the oil cooler in the same machine room, just outside of the panel. The elevator manufacturer says that's not allowed by code and said it is in the NEC, but I cannot find a reference to this in the NEC. Does someone have some ideas on where that is in (any) code? Also I am a dumb architect so would appreciate any feedback in layman's terms.

 

[Sparky2791]

Since the disconnect serves the elevator in some manner I do not see why this is not permitted. Without looking where it is in the code exactly , I know items not specific to the elevator itself are not permitted in the elevator machine room including foreign pipes and conduits passing through the machine room.

I would ask them to cite the section and verse of the code where this applies. Since this is their ruling they should be able to tell you that info.
Let them do the leg work since they are the ones telling you it is not permitted. Too many times people throw the saying 'Code does not allow it' out and cannot tell you what code or where in the code it is listed. Obviously just be professional about the way you request the info.

Something like ....

We have reviewed the (indicate the year of the code) NEC to locate where we in indicates are not permitted to install ...... and were unable to locate this. Please indicate where this is located in the NEC so we are aware for this and future projects.

I am curious to hear what the response is. In the end it really should be up to the AHJ, not the elevator manufacturer to make that call.

Sometime you have to question 'Authority' to get to the truth.

 

[MJWeese]

Since the disconnect serves the elevator in some manner I do not see why this is not permitted. Without looking where it is in the code exactly , I know items not specific to the elevator itself are not permitted in the elevator machine room including foreign pipes and conduits passing through the machine room.

I would ask them to cite the section and verse of the code where this applies. Since this is their ruling they should be able to tell you that info.
Let them do the leg work since they are the ones telling you it is not permitted. Too many times people throw the saying 'Code does not allow it' out and cannot tell you what code or where in the code it is listed. Obviously just be professional about the way you request the info.

Something like ....

We have reviewed the (indicate the year of the code) NEC to locate where we in indicates are not permitted to install ...... and were unable to locate this. Please indicate where this is located in the NEC so we are aware for this and future projects.

I am curious to hear what the response is. In the end it really should be up to the AHJ, not the elevator manufacturer to make that call.

Sometime you have to question 'Authority' to get to the truth.

Thank you - this has been such a painful process with the contractor - I have done a few elevator mods and this has never come up before!

 

[MyCleveland]

Hello, I have a hydraulic elevator whose disconnect is the circuit breaker type in a lockable panel in the elevator machine room. Since it's a high-use hydro, we are adding an oil cooler to the hydraulic fuel tank. The oil cooler disconnect is also a circuit breaker in the same panel. The contractor wants to put another disconnect for the oil cooler in the same machine room, just outside of the panel. The elevator manufacturer says that's not allowed by code and said it is in the NEC, but I cannot find a reference to this in the NEC. Does someone have some ideas on where that is in (any) code? Also I am a dumb architect so would appreciate any feedback in layman's terms.

If you have a copy of NEC 2020…look at 620.51.
It is basically states you need a single disconnect.

Have done numerous elevator jobs and never ran into what you are describing.

You mention the machine room has a panel?
Do both feeds originate from this source?
If yes, maybe you can change both CBers to shunt-trip type and control both via an E-stop push button if the elevator inspector and EI will allow it.

 

[Sparky2791]

If you have a copy of NEC 2020…look at 620.51.
It is basically states you need a single disconnect.

I am assuming there is only one disconnect for the elevator machine itself as required by the section you reference. This is for the oil cooler which does not provide power to the elevator machine.

The contractor wants to put another disconnect for the oil cooler in the same machine room, just outside of the panel

As I consider this again I ask, if the panel is in the same room and is within sight of the oil cooler why the second disconnect switch outside of the panel? The breaker in the panel can be the disconnect for the oil cooler.

 

[roger]

As I consider this again I ask, if the panel is in the same room and is within sight of the oil cooler why the second disconnect switch outside of the panel? The breaker in the panel can be the disconnect for the oil cooler.

Agreed.
In my experience elevator inspectors and installers were the most off the wall and incorrect sources as far as their understanding of the NEC.

I was lucky enough to work with one that was on top of his game though.

 

[MyCleveland]

I am assuming there is only one disconnect for the elevator machine itself as required by the section you reference. This is for the oil cooler which does not provide power to the elevator machine.

As I consider this again I ask, if the panel is in the same room and is within sight of the oil cooler why the second disconnect switch outside of the panel? The breaker in the panel can be the disconnect for the oil cooler.

Did not intend to discount your thoughts.
Just trying to provide an out when the elevator inspector arrives at the party.
Here…they have the final word.

If this is a common add on, they already know what they want to see installed.
Let’s hope they have the SCCR accounted for.

 

[MJWeese]

If you have a copy of NEC 2020…look at 620.51.
It is basically states you need a single disconnect.

Have done numerous elevator jobs and never ran into what you are describing.

You mention the machine room has a panel?
Do both feeds originate from this source?
If yes, maybe you can change both CBers to shunt-trip type and control both via an E-stop push button if the elevator inspector and EI will allow it.

Thank you - both do originate from this source and the CBs already have shunt trips, which is required when you have sprinklers, which are required in a hydraulic condition (at least in California), as you all know. This was a request by the contractor and I am not sure if he can expain fully why he wanted it - I've talked to elevator consultants and to Otis and they are all in agreement that the CBs in the panel are enough (the room is only 10x17) but the GC doesn't want to believe any of the experts.

 

[MyCleveland]

Thank you - both do originate from this source and the CBs already have shunt trips, which is required when you have sprinklers, which are required in a hydraulic condition (at least in California), as you all know. This was a request by the contractor and I am not sure if he can expain fully why he wanted it - I've talked to elevator consultants and to Otis and they are all in agreement that the CBs in the panel are enough (the room is only 10x17) but the GC doesn't want to believe any of the experts.

Is the Elevator Consultant you project EE? Never had a plan/spec project with an Elevator Consultant.

You mentioned the panel in the room with integral shunt trips. Here, the shunt trips are NOT allowed in the machine room. This was true in another state but I do not recall which.
I believe the idea is with the exposure to sprinklers they literally want to remove the power circuits completely. No live line terminals in your local disconnects.
Also, the machine room shut-off switch and the cab ltg cct must be in a HANDLE operated type lockable/enclosure immediately adjacent to the room entry door.

Possibly the GC has ran into this before and is skeptical. Maybe worth while to get your elevator inspector to do a pre-lim final. Worth the extra cost compared to last minute rush fixes not to mention the GC's "I told you so" that will ring in your ears for quite awhile.

 

[MJWeese]

Is the Elevator Consultant you project EE? Never had a plan/spec project with an Elevator Consultant.

You mentioned the panel in the room with integral shunt trips. Here, the shunt trips are NOT allowed in the machine room. This was true in another state but I do not recall which.
I believe the idea is with the exposure to sprinklers they literally want to remove the power circuits completely. No live line terminals in your local disconnects.
Also, the machine room shut-off switch and the cab ltg cct must be in a HANDLE operated type lockable/enclosure immediately adjacent to the room entry door.

Possibly the GC has ran into this before and is skeptical. Maybe worth while to get your elevator inspector to do a pre-lim final. Worth the extra cost compared to last minute rush fixes not to mention the GC's "I told you so" that will ring in your ears for quite awhile.

It's entirely possible that I have misstated the shunt trip item - I am really just the architect and honestly I am like the Dowager Countess of Downton Abbey, just completely confounded by all things electrical.

We do have a separate handle shut off for cab lighting.

In this particular jurisdiction, if you have sprinklers in the machine room, you need shunt trips for your elevator machinery.

The elevator consultant is a separate entity, not the EE - we use them a lot because most of our work is in hospitals and so not only do we have the Elevator Inspector we also have the State which oversees all things hospital due to seismic concerns (OSHPD, now known as HCAI). It's all very confusing!!