Emergency disconnect

[nizak]

Should the required emergency disconnect for a single family dwelling be located 300’ from the house where the Utility meter base is located?

Inspector says yes because all disconnects have to be grouped together.

There is currently one disconnect next to the meter base that’s feeding the detached garage that the meter base is mounted on. Because that’s there he’s saying the other one needs to be as well.

I proposed running the underground service conductors ( 3 wire) directly from the meter to the house and setting the Emergency Disconnect there .
Am I wrong?

Thanks

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The rule in the 2020 code is not clear as to the required location of the emergency disconnect. This was cleared up in the 2023 with a requirement that the emergency disconnect by on or within sight of the dwelling. Within sight is a defined term requiring the disconnect to be no more than 50' from the dwelling.

 

[nizak]

So I would be correct in saying the Emergency disconnect should be on the house and another disconnect needs to be at the garage / meter base before the underground?

 

[david]

So I would be correct in saying the Emergency disconnect should be on the house and another disconnect needs to be at the garage / meter base before the underground?

If your service conductors are supplied from the meter at the garage, you are not required to have a disconnect for the dwelling at the garage

You said you where running 3 conductors from the meter to the dwelling

 

[retirede]

Inspector says yes because all disconnects have to be grouped together.

There is no requirement to group the emergency disconnect with any other disconnect(s).

 

[nizak]

Inspector appears to be totally wrong.

My proposal to him being:
- Underground service conductors from meter with no disconnect.(3) wire
- Emergency disconnect at house.


The fact there is currently a disconnect on the garage , feeding the garage, is what his reasoning is for having the other one there.

He wants a 4 wire feeder to the house.
That in turn requires me to put a disco at the garage and the E -disco on the house.

 

[nizak]

Inspector appears to be totally wrong.

My proposal to him being:
- Underground service conductors from meter with no disconnect.(3) wire
- Emergency disconnect at house.


The fact there is currently a disconnect on the garage , feeding the garage, is what his reasoning is for having the other one there.

He wants a 4 wire feeder to the house.
That in turn requires me to put a disco at the garage and the E -disco on the house.

What about the GE now at the house
Where does that get attached?

 

[david]

What about the GE now at the house
Where does that get attached?

Grounding electrode conductor, in the emergency disconnect at the dwelling, in the service disconnect at the dwelling, or both.

ie ground rods from the outside disconnect, and the water pipe bond from the service disconnect.

 

[hornetd]

What about the GE now at the house
Where does that get attached?

250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or
Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s)
supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding
electrode or grounding electrode system installed in
accordance with Part III of Article 250. The grounding electrode
conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance with
250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding electrode,
the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50 shall be
installed.
(B) Grounded Systems.
(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment
grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run
with the supply conductors and be connected to the building
or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(
s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used
for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames
required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding
conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any
installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the
equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(
s).

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation. Grounding
electrode conductors at the service, at each building or
structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or
at a separately derived system shall be installed as specified in
250.64(A) through (F).
The requirements of 250.64 (A) through (F) are the same as the requirements for Service Supplied structures.
(2) Individual Grounding Electrode Conductors. A grounding
electrode conductor shall be connected between the
grounding electrode system and one or more of the following,
as applicable:
(2) Equipment grounding conductor installed with the
feeder

 

[hornetd]

Grounding electrode conductor, in the emergency disconnect at the dwelling, in the service disconnect at the dwelling, or both.

ie ground rods from the outside disconnect, and the water pipe bond from the service disconnect.

If the inspector gets away with his demand for a remote Service Disconnect; which is completely unsupported by the US National Electric Code (NEC); then the conductors to the house will be a feeder. The least cost method of compliance with the requirement for an Emergency Disconnect would be to put the Building Disconnect outside the building were it could serve as both the Building Disconnect and the Emergency Disconnect. Because of the pricing that is now common on residential panels you may end up with a Main Breaker panel but be sure that any available Main Lug Only panel does not cost less before automatically buying a main breaker panel. Regardless of whether or not the panel has a main breaker you must remove the Main Bonding Jumper, install separate Equipment Grounding Conductor busbars, keep all of the EGCs on the EGC busbars, and keep all of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductors on the Grounded Service Conductor busbar. That said you may want a main breaker panel if you want the emergency disconnect located away from the building. That is because the Building Disconnect must be

225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed
either inside or outside of the building or structure served or
where the conductors pass through the building or structure.
The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the
purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
utilized.

Forgive me but I just have to say that inspector is a horses ass. There is nothing in the US NEC that justifies the additional expense of installing a 4 wire feeder. Depending on how the property is laid out it might be more cost effective to run a 3 wire service lateral to the building which is closest to were the utility's conductors enter that property and then run a feeder from there to the building furthest away. To avoid the additional cost of 400 ampere service equipment you could just install 2 separate disconnects at the nearest building which are sized for the load of each building's demand calculation. Were the utility service standard says to install the meter socket enclosure is of no bearing on how you install the rest of the wiring system as long as it complies with the NEC. If you have to provide and install the Service Lateral from the pole were the meter is located to the Service Equipment the demarcation point between the Utility's conductors and yours will most probably be at the load terminals of the meter socket. Only the utility regulating agency approved service standard can specify were the Service Equipment is located in relationship to the meter socket enclosure. If it does not specify that relationship the inspector does not get to choose one.

A word of caution. If the documentation provided by the Utility is labeled Suggested Service Installation, or anything similar, and does not bear the approval of the utility regulatory agency of your State, it is not a Service Standard and you do not have to comply with it. It's a trick some utilities use when the asked for some change in their approved service standard, usually to shift more of the installation costs to the customer, and the State utility regulating agency turned them down. The "Suggested Service Installation" does what the utility wants in shifting the cost to the customer but since that document is not labeled Service Standard and does not bear the regulatory agencies approval you are not bound to obey it.

 

[electrofelon]

Inspector appears to be totally wrong.

My proposal to him being:
- Underground service conductors from meter with no disconnect.(3) wire
- Emergency disconnect at house.


The fact there is currently a disconnect on the garage , feeding the garage, is what his reasoning is for having the other one there.

He wants a 4 wire feeder to the house.
That in turn requires me to put a disco at the garage and the E -disco on the house.

You are correct. Show him 230.40 exception #3. Then show him 230.71(A) , making specific note of the words "or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3......". In other words, a disconnect do not need to be grouped.

 

[nizak]

If the inspector gets away with his demand for a remote Service Disconnect; which is completely unsupported by the US National Electric Code (NEC); then the conductors to the house will be a feeder. The least cost method of compliance with the requirement for an Emergency Disconnect would be to put the Building Disconnect outside the building were it could serve as both the Building Disconnect and the Emergency Disconnect. Because of the pricing that is now common on residential panels you may end up with a Main Breaker panel but be sure that any available Main Lug Only panel does not cost less before automatically buying a main breaker panel. Regardless of whether or not the panel has a main breaker you must remove the Main Bonding Jumper, install separate Equipment Grounding Conductor busbars, keep all of the EGCs on the EGC busbars, and keep all of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductors on the Grounded Service Conductor busbar. That said you may want a main breaker panel if you want the emergency disconnect located away from the building. That is because the Building Disconnect must be

225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed
either inside or outside of the building or structure served or
where the conductors pass through the building or structure.
The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the
purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
utilized.

Forgive me but I just have to say that inspector is a horses ass. There is nothing in the US NEC that justifies the additional expense of installing a 4 wire feeder. Depending on how the property is laid out it might be more cost effective to run a 3 wire service lateral to the building which is closest to were the utility's conductors enter that property and then run a feeder from there to the building furthest away. To avoid the additional cost of 400 ampere service equipment you could just install 2 separate disconnects at the nearest building which are sized for the load of each building's demand calculation. Were the utility service standard says to install the meter socket enclosure is of no bearing on how you install the rest of the wiring system as long as it complies with the NEC. If you have to provide and install the Service Lateral from the pole were the meter is located to the Service Equipment the demarcation point between the Utility's conductors and yours will most probably be at the load terminals of the meter socket. Only the utility regulating agency approved service standard can specify were the Service Equipment is located in relationship to the meter socket enclosure. If it does not specify that relationship the inspector does not get to choose one.

A word of caution. If the documentation provided by the Utility is labeled Suggested Service Installation, or anything similar, and does not bear the approval of the utility regulatory agency of your State, it is not a Service Standard and you do not have to comply with it. It's a trick some utilities use when the asked for some change in their approved service standard, usually to shift more of the installation costs to the customer, and the State utility regulating agency turned them down. The "Suggested Service Installation" does what the utility wants in shifting the cost to the customer but since that document is not labeled Service Standard and does not bear the regulatory agencies approval you are not bound to obey it.

There is no requirement to group the emergency disconnect with any other disconnect(s).

Is there specific language that states the Emergency Disconnect does not have to be grouped with other disconnects

 

[electrofelon]

Is there specific language that states the Emergency Disconnect does not have to be grouped with other disconnects

No, but that is how the NEC works, it has to state something is prohibited for it to be disallowed.

 

[hornetd]

Is there specific language that states the Emergency Disconnect does not have to be grouped with other disconnects

The Maxim of the law is that Silence Is Consent. Since the US National Electric Code (NEC) specifically says that the Emergency Disconnect Does not have to be the Service Disconnect and the only requirement for the grouping of Disconnects is that Service Disconnects must be grouped, although not under all conditions, there is nothing in the NEC which requires an Emergency Disconnect to be grouped except when there is more than one on a single building. Since the 200 ampere service to the house will only need a single disconnect there is no justification for the inspector's position. Just check the 2 applicable references which electrofelon provided; copied below.

You are correct. Show him 230.40 exception #3. Then show him 230.71(A) , making specific note of the words "or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3......". In other words, a disconnect do not need to be grouped.

 

[nizak]

You are correct. Show him 230.40 exception #3. Then show him 230.71(A) , making specific note of the words "or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3......". In other words, a disconnect do not need to be grouped.

Did you mean 230.71(B)?
Thanks

 

[electrofelon]

Did you mean 230.71(B)?
Thanks

No but I am referencing the 2017 and I think that got shifted around, sorry.

 

[david]

Is there specific language that states the Emergency Disconnect does not have to be grouped with other disconnects

There may be a misunderstanding as to the garage as an accessory structor to the dwelling needing an emergency disconnect and the requirement to group the emergency disconnect together, since the service for the premise originates at the garage location.

The scope of the International residential code " one and two family dwellings. Town houses and accessory structors.

I agree it's not the intent to require an emergency disconnect for the garage.

And for language comparison only I also would think if a hot tub was supplied by this same garage service that an e-stop would not be required for the hot tub.

"Single family dwelling"

 

[nizak]

A relatively simple job has become a huge PITA.
What makes matters worse is that it’s a remote location with no place to get any materials .

I’m going to gets all my ducks in a row and send the inspector code reference that supports my way of wanting to do the job and see how that goes.

I’ve never worked in this area and am an “outsider”.

Don’t want to rock the boat but it’s ridiculous for what he’s asking for.

Plumber who’s also an out of town guy already got dinged for BS that he’s never encountered anywhere else in 20+ years.

HVAC guy is waiting with clinched a.. cheeks for his surprise at rough in inspection.

 

[david]

A relatively simple job has become a huge PITA.
What makes matters worse is that it’s a remote location with no place to get any materials .

I’m going to gets all my ducks in a row and send the inspector code reference that supports my way of wanting to do the job and see how that goes.

I’ve never worked in this area and am an “outsider”.

Don’t want to rock the boat but it’s ridiculous for what he’s asking for.

Plumber who’s also an out of town guy already got dinged for BS that he’s never encountered anywhere else in 20+ years.

HVAC guy is waiting with clinched a.. cheeks for his surprise at rough in inspection.

That 20 + years deserves some respect, but inspectors hear that all the time, I. been doing it this way for over 25 years and your the first one who ever said anything.

I don't have the book in front of me but what is it exception 3 or something that allows the single family dwelling and another structure to do what your doing with the three wire service entrance.

I wouldn't through a lot at him I would start there and make sure your in agreement.

I have seen thousands of services and only seen that exception used maybe four times.

If your not in agreement there than the rest of it is an up hill struggle.

 

[nizak]

That 20 + years deserves some respect, but inspectors hear that all the time, I. been doing it this way for over 25 years and your the first one who ever said anything.

I don't have the book in front of me but what is it exception 3 or something that allows the single family dwelling and another structure to do what your doing with the three wire service entrance.

I wouldn't through a lot at him I would start there and make sure your in agreement.

I have seen thousands of services and only seen that exception used maybe four times.

If your not in agreement there than the rest of it is an up hill struggle.

That 20 + years deserves some respect, but inspectors hear that all the time, I. been doing it this way for over 25 years and your the first one who ever said anything.

I don't have the book in front of me but what is it exception 3 or something that allows the single family dwelling and another structure to do what your doing with the three wire service entrance.

I wouldn't through a lot at him I would start there and make sure your in agreement.

I have seen thousands of services and only seen that exception used maybe four times.

If your not in agreement there than the rest of it is an up hill struggle.

That 20 + years deserves some respect, but inspectors hear that all the time, I. been doing it this way for over 25 years and your the first one who ever said anything.

I don't have the book in front of me but what is it exception 3 or something that allows the single family dwelling and another structure to do what your doing with the three wire service entrance.

I wouldn't through a lot at him I would start there and make sure your in agreement.

I have seen thousands of services and only seen that exception used maybe four times.

If your not in agreement there than the rest of it is an up hill struggle.

Give the inspector what he wants and move forward. He can make it miserable for me if he wants to.

In jobs past I’ve contacted the State Electrical Division and voiced concerns over wrong calls being made by the AHJ. Was told that they don’t get involved with Municipal and Township issues only ones that are brought to their regarding actual State inspectors.