Emergency Lighting situation

[Ragin Cajun]

I am working on the final design for a hardware store. The owner wants a generator so he can keep the store open as the area is subject to ice storm outages. Thus he wants a limited amount of lighting, cash registers - the POS system, some HVAC for heat, etc. on the generator to keep the store open. Since the generator will start within 10 seconds of an outage, I would also like to use these lights for the required emergency lights.

There are 10 rows of fluorescent fixtures. I plan to intersperse the generator fed lights in these 10 rows of lights. Can I run the emergency circuits through the rows of lights? How about the normal power circuits, can they be run through the selected emergency lights? I would hate to have to run separate conduits for the emergency lights, much less separate the normal light circuits from the emergency lights.

Can emergency lights fed from the generator be switched if the switching fails to "ON" upon loss of regular power? The owner wants to be able to turn the lights connected to the generator off when the store is closed to save energy. I have in mind a device called ?MF-GEN GENERATOR TRANSFER DEVICE? my Mule Lighting, Inc. This looks like it will answer the above questions as well. Anybody have any experience with it??Cost??


Thanks,

RC

 

[LarryFine]

You can get emergency-lighting replacement fluorescent ballasts that contain batteries and inverters. I think there is a way to keep it off when you switch lights off; I imagine it needs an unswitched hot.

 

[iwire]

Ragin you can not mix required emergency lighting with optional standby systems.

Let me suggest this.

Provide any legally required emergency lighting and exit signs with battery units, (Larry's suggestion is a great one)

Once you have meet the required lighting levels with battery units you can than pick and choose whatever else you want to power from the generator.

If you do not provide the required e-lighting by battery you will have have to provide it from the generator. To do that would mean a generator with two breakers on it feeding two transfer switches feeding separate panels.

In other words you would have 2 systems in the building "Article 700 Emergency" and "Article 702 Optional standby"

Further all the Emergency system wiring would also have to be kept in separate raceways, cables, enclosures and fixtures.

 

[goldstar]

Can emergency lights fed from the generator be switched if the switching fails to "ON" upon loss of regular power?

Just curious to know how you do this and still be able to switch the light on and off during regular operations.

Also, it is my undrstanding that the intent of having emergency lights is to come on immediately in the event of a power failure in order to allow occupants to safely exit the premises. In your situation you have a ten minute time lapse before the generator kicks in. So, in your scenario lets say there are 10 people in your hardware store during an ice storm and the POCO power goes out. Those 10 people will have to stand around for 10 seconds while the power is restored by the generator. This could become a panic situation for some people not to mention other scenarios like theft or injuries occuring. Before completing your design I would check with the building and fire depts. in the community to see if they have any objections.

The owner wants to be able to turn the lights connected to the generator off when the store is closed to save energy.

The POCO power is off. What is he looking to save ? Gas ?

You're going to have to install exit lights anyway, why not install combo exit/emerg light units to meet your requirement.

 

[iwire]

Can emergency lights fed from the generator be switched if the switching fails to "ON" upon loss of regular power?

Just curious to know how you do this and still be able to switch the light on and off during regular operations.

We do this all the time, as always there are a few ways to handle this but IMO the easiest method is to wire a normal closed relay/contactor parallel with the wail switch, The coil of this relay will be powered 24/7 from utility powered circuit, if the utility fails the contactor closes and the light comes on once the generator comes on line.

So, in your scenario lets say there are 10 people in your hardware store during an ice storm and the POCO power goes out. Those 10 people will have to stand around for 10 seconds while the power is restored by the generator.

This is quite common in buildings with generators. The code allows up to 10 seconds for the generator to come on line, in practice it can happen much faster, like 3 to 5 seconds, assuming a maintained generator with a block heater.

The POCO power is off. What is he looking to save ? Gas ?

He will save having the e-lights run 24/7 with or without utility power.

If you provide the e-lighting from a generator you have two choices.

1) The lighting stays on 24/7

2)You rig it so the lighting can be turned off when not needed but it must always come on during a power failure.

You're going to have to install exit lights anyway, why not install combo exit/emerg light units to meet your requirement.

I agree, this will be the least costly way.

Did I mention that a generator and transfer switch used to provide required emergency lighting must be listed for the purpose $$$.

It will also likely need a service contract with a generator service company.

Go with EBUs to meet code requirements, then use a standard generator for the optional loads.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

Thanks.

I can go with two smaller xfer switches, might actually be less $ than one larger one.

There are fluorescent battery packs that can be switched, you just bring an unswitched hot leg to sense when the power is out; use them frequently.

Since we have a generator, I just want to avoid the long term maintenance costs of the batteries. Their lifetime, maintenance, etc. is not the greatest.

The bottom line is do I spend $ forever on batteries or a bit more up front to use the generator, which will be installed either way and will need to be maintained anyway.

Anybody use the ?MF-GEN GENERATOR TRANSFER DEVICE???



Thanks,

RC

 

[iwire]

Since we have a generator, I just want to avoid the long term maintenance costs of the batteries. Their lifetime, maintenance, etc. is not the greatest.

Is it aproved as an 'emergency genertor' or simply a standyby generator.

The transfer switch that is approved for emergency use will cost a great deal more than a standard one.

Is the battery charger for the generatorgenerator approved for emergency use? It will cost more than a standard one. The last one I bought was over $700.00

The bottom line is do I spend $ forever on batteries or a bit more up front to use the generator, which will be installed either way and will need to be maintained anyway.

I am willing to bet you will spend more doing what you propose than replacing the batteries every few years.

Good luck either way.

700.3 Equipment Approval.
All equipment shall be approved for use on emergency systems.

700.4 Tests and Maintenance.

(A) Conduct or Witness Test. The authority having jurisdiction shall conduct or witness a test of the complete system upon installation and periodically afterward.

(B) Tested Periodically. Systems shall be tested periodically on a schedule acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction to ensure the systems are maintained in proper operating condition.


(C) Battery Systems Maintenance. Where battery systems or unit equipments are involved, including batteries used for starting, control, or ignition in auxiliary engines, the authority having jurisdiction shall require periodic maintenance.

(D) Written Record. A written record shall be kept of such tests and maintenance.

(E) Testing Under Load. Means for testing all emergency lighting and power systems during maximum anticipated load conditions shall be provided.

700.6 Transfer Equipment.
(A) General. Transfer equipment, including automatic transfer switches, shall be automatic, identified for emergency use, and approved by the authority having jurisdiction. Transfer equipment shall be designed and installed to prevent the inadvertent interconnection of normal and emergency sources of supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Transfer equipment and electric power production systems installed to permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet the requirements of Article 705.

(D) Use. Transfer equipment shall supply only emergency loads.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

BOB,

I sure didn't realize the premium a 700 system demanded!!! Wow. The ones I have used were code/local AHJ required and there was no choice in the matter.

Guess I might drop back and punt! Blast.

This project has been the project from "L" with continual client changes, etc. Even the arch asked his secretary in from of the client "have we ever fired a client?"

We have the "final" meeting Wednesday afternoon and do I really want to go there. I would like to give the client a chunk of my mind regarding his practices.

RC

 

[Jpreverso]

Another Idea, you could set a small sub panel that you land all your em circuits in. Off your main panel you feed the the ATS that then feeds the the em panel. Also feed the ATS from the generator. Just make sure the ATS enough room in it to transfer the neutrals as well as the hots.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

That's kinda what I may do, one pnlbd for emergency lights and one for all the other stuff. The other stuff is over double the emergency lighting load.

 

[bstoin]

You can get emergency-lighting replacement fluorescent ballasts that contain batteries and inverters. I think there is a way to keep it off when you switch lights off; I imagine it needs an unswitched hot.

Good idea...and yes there is an uswitched hot that would be connected. The lights still will go on and off under normal operation by the switch. All the unswitched power source does is tell the battery backup ballast that there is power. When power is cut off on the unswitched power source the fixture turns on via the battery.

 

[goldstar]

That would be fine except I was under the impression that the shop owner wanted to be able to turn the lights off even under power fail conditions. At least that's the way I interpreted the initial post.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

That would be fine except I was under the impression that the shop owner wanted to be able to turn the lights off even under power fail conditions. At least that's the way I interpreted the initial post.

No, of all the numerous things he wants to do, this ain't one of them. He just wants to turn them off when the store is closed, which I agree with. Lighting in the main part of the store will be on lighting contactors.

Thanks, RC